Raven Prop P Discussion Threads

[zangdook] 11/1/2024 07:32

I assume interest would be calculated from the regular payment date, which is specified in the Admission document:

Cumulative preferential dividends will accrue from day to day on the Preference Shares at a rate of 12 per cent. per annum on the Fixed Amount (being £1) from (and including) the date of issue and will be payable quarterly in equal instalments in arrears on 31 March, 30 June, 30 September and 31 December in each year

My understanding was that the dividend was paid just because they managed to get some cash. I would expect the sunsequent dividend(s) to be paid if they got some more cash, as well - it's in the directors' interests as well as ours as they're big holders.

[gfrae] 10/1/2024 21:12

Zangdook, I was jusy saying that the reason that dividend was for practical reasons and not because the dividend had been declared. But I see your ppoint and may be wrong.
Though I dont see how they can declare dividends months or years after the normal date....from when would interest be calculated ?
I think it is a relevant discussion...how and when dividends makes a huge diffetence to their value.
The underjying business should be doing well, and yhere is good chance of recouping value.

[tradertrev] 10/1/2024 14:30

Ok, to try and put this rather silly debate to rest. A while back I bought REA Holdings cumulative 9% prefs. These had at least a couple of years of arrears of pref dividends. When they declared a pref dividend that included some catch up of the arrears, I received it, despite having bought a long time after what you might call the "regular" pref dividend payment date. The ex div date follows the declaration of the dividend, not what one might call the regular payments date.
The dividend we received last year had already been declared and assigned an ex div date, which is why the dividend got paid to the accounts that held it at that time, not where they got moved to following cancellation of listing.

[zangdook] 10/1/2024 12:07

I'm not sure which part of what I said you think is not correct - are you suggesting the ex-dividend dates for unpaid dividends will already have passed even though they haven't been declared?

[gfrae] 10/1/2024 11:31

Zangdook, I am not sure that is correct. I think that that the reason that dividend was paid to holders was to keep things tidy ie it was possible to trade the prefs after the ex div date therefore there would be holders who were entitled to the dividend who no longer held the shares.
That would not be the case for subsequent payments. (or very few as seen above ).

[rahosi] 10/1/2024 11:01

Settled trades:

Date of transaction Type of Share Volume Price (GBp)

28/06/2023 Ordinary ...200,023 05.1
31/10/2023 Ordinary ...300,000 01.1
21/12/2023 Ordinary 10,561,294 00.2525
21/12/2023 Preference ..13,059 11.45p

[redhorse2020] 30/12/2023 09:25

All seems a bit academic currently unfortunately - unless anyone expecting dividends to resume any time soon......

[zangdook] 29/12/2023 22:47

So...the March 2022 dividend which was paid in February 2023 went to the holders on the ex-dividend date in February 2022 only because that dividend had been formally declared. I was (mistakenly) assuming the ex-dividend dates were written in stone like the payment dates. Not so:

Payment of the 12% Preference Dividend shall be made to holders of Preference Shares on the register at any date selected by the board no earlier than 42 days prior to the relevant dividend payment date.

So the board could select as record date for all the missed dividends a date long after they were originally due.

[williamcooper104] 29/12/2023 21:30

Prefs trade on dirty prices Bonds trade on a clean price, so once you buy a bond you've to pay the accrued interest and likewise when you sell one you get the price for the bond and a seperate amount for the accrued interest But with prefs you just get the price you sell it for

[gfrae] 29/12/2023 20:55

Tiltonboy.
Of course any holder would give up the accruing dividend on selling. But they would not give up the accrued dividends up to the date of sale.

[tradertrev] 29/12/2023 17:55

erstwhile - I think you've nailed it

[stemis] 29/12/2023 16:56

tradertrev,

I think we are talking at cross purposes. As I said in 2414 they are cumulative. What I was referring to, in 2425, was gfrae's comment re entitlement to dividends for any buyer.

[tiltonboy] 29/12/2023 15:33

Any holder would give up their rights to the accruing dividend if they were to sell, which would pass to the buyer.

While this is very much hypothetical, should I believe that the accrued dividends were likely to be paid in the future, I would increase my price to sell each year

[zangdook] 29/12/2023 14:58

I think what people are concerned about is, if you sell (or buy) them, who is entitled to the dividends whose ex- dates passed before you sold, and I think from our experience with the one dividend that has been paid, as Stemis points out, the seller is entitled to those past dividends, and the buyer only to dividends going ex- after the purchase date.

Edit: this next sentence may be wrong, because the ex-dividend dates for post-March 2022 overdue payments have not yet been declared:

So if you were to buy some today you would be gambling on the company being profitable going forward, not on it being able some day to pay its past debts.

This sentence is still correct:

But they're still cumulative prefs.

[tradertrev] 29/12/2023 14:46

SteMiS - what you are referring to is simply the effective ex-dividend date, which itself was based on the original record date. This meant that although prefs had to be transferred from ISA accounts to non-ISA accounts, the fact that they had gone xd prior to this transfer meant that the dividend went to the location the prefs were held on the day prior to the effective ex-dividend date, i.e. the ISA account.
The same would apply in relation to any other sales and purchases prior to the effective xd date.
This has nothing to do with the cumulative aspect of the prefs. All previous unpaid dividends have to be paid before any dividends can be paid on ordinary shares. These dividends will be paid to the holders as per the record date/xd date as and when such dividends are declared. So if you hold these currently and keep them you stand to receive any and all dividends that get paid, including ones from the past that haven't been paid or declared.

[zangdook] 29/12/2023 14:38

2.3.1 The holders of the Preference Shares shall be entitled to be paid, subject to the provisions of the Law, a fixed cumulative preferential dividend in priority to any payment of dividend to the holders of any class of shares other than Convertible Preference Shares at the rate of 12% per annum of the Fixed Amount (the “12% Preference Dividend”), such dividend to accrue on a daily basis from and including the date of issue of such Preference Shares and to be payable in equal instalments quarterly in arrears on 31 March, 30 June, 30 September and 31 December (or in the event of any such date not being a business day on the next day which is a business day) (each such date being referred to as a “dividend payment date”).

[zangdook] 29/12/2023 14:32

2423
I don't believe that's what cumulative means. AIUI, it just means that any missed payments have to be paid.

[stemis] 29/12/2023 14:04

I'm not sure that he is incorrect.

When Raven paid a preference dividend on 15 Feb 2023, resulting from sale of the interest rate caps, this is what they said

"As set out in our update of January 2023 the Company has been able to repatriate additional sterling funds from part of the proceeds from the sale of the interest rate caps in March 2022. We are pleased to note that the Board has recently agreed to make a one off payment of 3.45p per preference share relating to the 31 March 2022 preference dividend and the interest due on that dividend. Payment will be made on 15 February 2023 to preference shareholders on the register at 18 February 2022, being the original record date for the 31 March 2022 dividend."

hxxps://www.theravenpropertygroup.com/media/1624/20230209-announcement-pref-div-and-survey.pdf

[tiltonboy] 29/12/2023 13:09

gfrae

That is incorrect

[gfrae] 29/12/2023 12:17

They are not cumulative, in that if you bought a pref share today you would only have the right to future payments. Past payments plus any interest would still belong to the seller until the date of the sale.

[stemis] 29/12/2023 11:46

I don't think I said anything that contradicts that...

[santar] 29/12/2023 11:26

SteMIS - remember they haven't paid the pref divs not because they don't have the money but because they can't get the funds out of Russia. Hopefully at some point they will find a mechanism to do this.

[stemis] 28/12/2023 23:04

If management think there is value in the ords (even a penny's worth compared to a purchase price of 0.25p, although I doubt they buy just to make a profit of £71,250) then it is 'encouraging' for the prefs. For the ords to get anything the company would have pay the missed pref divs and interest thereon, which by 31.12.23 amounts to around 23.74p a share.