Raven Prop P Discussion Threads

[waterfall city] 07/9/2023 10:59

If they manage to refinance the 2024 debt I would see that as positive, there can't be many property transactions in the current market.

[hindsight] 07/9/2023 10:37

gfrae, I was replying to xasY post to me further up

[1knocker] 07/9/2023 10:34

If the Russian troops are mostly unwilling untrained lambs to the slaughter, and totally demoralised, where are the pictures of bulging prisoner of war camps and military hospitals full of captured Russian wounded? Casualty rates in war run pretty consistently at about 2 wounded for every 1 killed, and victorious armies take prisoners - in large numbers when resistance collapses. And if the Russians are inept, why are their strikes accurate when 'targeting' schools and hospitals but so ineffective when aiming at targets of military significance?

It is as important to take into account what is missing from reports as what is stated if you want to get some idea of the likely objectivity and reliability of reports.

What is striking though is the number of relatively senior Russian officers admitted as killed. That information would be all the more informative if we were told the equivalent numbers of Ukrainian officers killed.

[gfrae] 07/9/2023 10:08

Hindsight, not sure what my comment has to do with Putin propaganda, perhaps you can elaborate ?

[williamcooper104] 07/9/2023 09:56

There was no two sides when the US invaded Iraq in 2003 Likewise there's no two sides justifying Putin putting his tanks into Ukraine in 2021

[1knocker] 07/9/2023 09:51

hindsight, we have had a very one sided commentary on this war. There is a great deal we just do not know and, I suspect, a good deal we do know which ain't so.

I well remember an interview with a Ukrainian early in the fighting in which the question of civilian casualties was raised. The interviewer was clearly expecting to hear a horror story about Russian atrocities. Instead the reply was 'they helped the Russians; they got what was coming to them'. The interviewer hastily moved on, and when the interview was rebroadcast (BBC) later that day, that passage had been deleted.

Both sides manage the 'news'. There are good military reasons for dong so. Go back to the battle of Britain. In confused high speed fighting claims of 'kills' are always overstated. Our Air Force KNEW the true figures, because the planes shot down (on both sides) fell on Britain. But it did not assist the war effort to state that our pilots' claims were wildly exaggerated, and to announce the true figures. Nor was it explained that German fighters shooting at British plots who had bailed out were absolutely right and it was their duty to do so because a surviving British pilot would return to the fighting with a new plane, whereas it would have been a crime for British pilots to shoot at a parachuting German, because he would fall into British territory and was out of the war as son as he baled out. No, the Germans were barbaric and the Brits were honourable gents. Journalists do the best with what information they are provided with, and also give 'the home team' the benefit of the doubt, and their standing depends to degree upon telling their audience what it wants to hear. How well would the British official version of the Army's clashes with the IRA have gone down in a paper serving the Irish community in New York? It pays to make allowances for that, and not to accept every report at face value. Zelinsky is a far more accomplished propagandist than Putin !! That's not a criticism. Propaganda is a potent weapon.

[hindsight] 07/9/2023 07:59

Do you have any idea how pathetic you sound, parroting Putin propaganda?

Yes they are all ones Russian brain dead propaganda has used

"ukraine has wmd"
"ukraine is giving his soldiers viagra
"russian babies are being taken out of incubators"
"ukraine attacked our ship in the black sea"

[gfrae] 07/9/2023 07:26

Cassini, I think the Crimean War was about who ran the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem or something equally ridiculous.
Let us hope this equally ridiculous and pointless war is resolved before another Charge of The Light Brigade and and the deaths of many young British soldiers because of zealots on both sides.

[ramellous] 07/9/2023 06:14

I see this morning BAT has announced the sale of its Russian operations to a Russian management consortium. Also seems like they’ve been managing to get their profits out the last 3 yrs? I quote :-

We anticipate that the transaction will complete within the next month, once certain conditions have been satisfied. Upon completion, BAT will no longer have a presence in Russia or Belarus and will receive no financial gain from ongoing sales in these markets.

BAT remains confident of delivering its Full Year guidance as set out at our Half Year results on 26 July 2023.

Notes to Editors

-- BAT's operations in Russia include a head office in Moscow, 75 regional offices and a manufacturing facility in St. Petersburg. BAT also has an office in Belarus.

-- At 30 June 2023, on a constant currency basis, Russia and Belarus accounted for approximately 2.7% of Group revenue, and approximately 2.5% of Group adjusted profit from operations.

[cassini] 06/9/2023 21:40

Funnily enough, who were we fighting in Crimea in 1853-6? The Russians.

Why were we fighting them? The Great Game.

Fast forward to now. Who are we fighting (by proxy) near Crimea? The Russians.

Why are we fighting them? The Great Game.

[pbaker] 06/9/2023 18:46

Things are always more complex than we know. Waiting for the film with Tom Hanks playing Joe Biden(Democratic Party), though who will play Hunter Biden? 2014 was Barrack Obama(Democratic Party), he had a few issues with the NSA and CIA. A few problems with proxy wars. The truth is out there, I am just not sure what it is or who was pulling the strings in 2014. Perhaps Nato should welcome Russia into the treaty? Peace to everyone.

[holts] 06/9/2023 16:05

The family holding showed up about three to four years ago in fact it may have been more than five and I suspect having realised too much info had been supplied there were some changes made . He/She continued to post , what the actual size was when Putin kicked off I don’t know but I suspect still significant

[stemis] 06/9/2023 15:20

Russia invaded Crimea in 2014

[xasy] 06/9/2023 15:09

A military response in 2014 to the US coup in Ukraine and there would be no war today, that's right. Instead Russia tried diplomacy and was lied to by Merkel and Hollande.

Who lost their war with Vietnam btw?

[williamcooper104] 06/9/2023 14:56

Yep unnecessary as we forgot the lessons of the 1930s and appeased a dictator building a European land empire with the inevitable consequences Proper response in 2014 and there'd be no war today

[williamcooper104] 06/9/2023 14:54

Yep - to think that during the Cold War we were all scared of the soviet unions conventional force superiority Ditto - last time china had a war was 1979 and they lost to Vietnam

[xasy] 06/9/2023 14:52

what is a more credible "excuse" for war and what is outright propaganda?

fear of NATO, an ultra aggressive military alliance projecting US power with a history of bombing countries into rubble?

"saddam has wmd"
"gadaffi is giving his soldiers viagra"
"kuwaiti babies are being taken out of incubators"
"vietnam attacked our ship in the gulf of tonkin"

you have any idea how pathetic you sound, parroting the guardian and the daily mail?

[zangdook] 06/9/2023 10:40

hxxps://ria.ru/20230403/ukreplenie-1862658945.html

[hindsight] 06/9/2023 10:25

NATO is just one in a long list of Russian propaganda excuses
Finland has doubled NATOs Russian border so they have lost that one for a start
And the fact Russian forces havent been stationed to protect it, if NATO is such a threat, says it all

[zangdook] 06/9/2023 09:59

You took "fell" in the opposite sense to the Churchillian.

"From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent."

- Winston Churchill, March 1946

It fell, or descended, because Stalin had noticed the theatrical display of violence at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[stemis] 06/9/2023 09:47

NATO was set up to counter the threat from Russia (or the USSR, as it was). It was USSR that effectively occupied Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia after the war. Mmm, I wonder why Ukraine might have wanted to join a mutual defence pack to protect itself against aggression from a neighbour...that had already occupied part of its territory. The Warsaw Pact was just a sham pretence that members other than the USSR had anything to fear from the West; all it's other members, when they had a choice, joined NATO and the EU. Kind of shows who they were really worried about. The Iron Curtain fell because, as the Russian economy faltered, it was unable to maintain its suppression of those countries.

[zangdook] 06/9/2023 09:30

NATO was an existential threat to Yugoslavia and to Libya, and the threat was realised. With today's weapons it may not seem an existential threat to Russia, but technology is constantly advancing. Offer Mexico a mutual defence treaty with China and set up a Chinese military base in Ciudad Juarez and see how the US reacts.

The argument that NATO is not a threat to Russia is plainly spurious, if only because Russia considers it a threat. Why did the Warsaw Pact exist? Why did the Iron Curtain fall over Europe?

[gfrae] 06/9/2023 09:25

This is a pointless and unnecessary war that could easily have been avoided, proper negotiations must be started before it gets much worse.

[stemis] 06/9/2023 07:09

Although Ukraine had the nukes, it didn't have the codes to operate them, but yes Putin has shown himself unwilling to stick to any agreement when it no longer suits him. Russia is a nuclear power and NATO isn't going to attack it, whether it's via Finland, the Baltic States or Ukraine (assuming any of these countries would stupidly allow themselves to be used as a battlefield). The attempts to justify Russia's invasion are pretty contrived although all Russia has done is shown how weak it's conventional capability actually is...

[williamcooper104] 05/9/2023 21:16

But yep - the Golden Horde is back; and Russia has only two choices - back down and integrate with Europe or become greater North Korea; my money being on the later alas - for a few decades anyways Putin sober screwed Russia more than a drunk Yeltsin could ever have imagined