Imagination Technologies Share Discussion Threads

[hammerd2] 16/9/2017 00:53

While shuffling a few £10m's here or there on whether they have miraculously actually done it is largely irrelevant these days now IMG is going to get sold, Apple are claiming to have reinvented the wheel. People have differing thoughts on the likelihood. I largely couldn't give a flying one as long as a decent share price is achieved on any bids that may come in - and I actually own shares ! I can't imagine why anyone who doesn't would be at all exercised on the subject.

[rob_evans] 15/9/2017 18:44

Extract from

However, the Neural Engine and Graphics Engine are entirely new.

I asked Srouji why Apple decided now, after years of using third-party GPUs, most recently PowerVTR’s GT7600 GPU, to build and integrate their own. I should have anticipated his answer.

“If you look at our system on a chip, CPU, ISP, display, where we believe we can differentiate and provide an optimized value custom to Apple, we go out and own it. We’ve done that consistently for 30 years.”

Building its own GPU is also another key to owning the entire stack. Schiller noted that now Apple has everything from graphics hardware to compilers, programming languages, to the OS — including frameworks and libraries.

“It’s not just Lego pieces stacked together,” said Schiller, “the team designed them to work together.”

[sfj] 15/9/2017 13:01

I wonder what impact a Chinese owner would have if there would be any kind of patent infringement, there has been cases where a sales ban has been introduced in China for some Apple products.

[hammerd2] 15/9/2017 10:25

Odd you'd think there would be much weakness with all the upcoming good news you're expecting in a couple of days.

[blueteam] 15/9/2017 07:11

Have a good feeling next week we will hear a whole range of news. Will top up on any weakness.

[life of crime] 14/9/2017 15:15

The Trump rejection of Canyon's Lattice bid is an interesting development. As I understand it, Lattice do a fair amount of work for the US military, so not suprprisngly they would not be thrilled by a Chinese backed company owning a supplier to their armed forces.

This would not be an issue re a Canyon bid for IMG, as the US based MIPS division does not supply the American military AFAIK. It was Sky News that broke the Canyon rumour and the journo concerned, Mark Kleinman, is their city editor and has a good reputation when it comes to insider contacts.

The Lattice rebuff does leave a lot of cash burning a hole in Canyon's pocket and could see them making a move on IMG. The iPhone 8 is out next week so they would not have to wait long for a tear down to confirm whether IMG is in it or not. If they are and Apple confirm it, that's a good chunk of revenue for the next 12 months. If they are in it but Apple deny so, then a bidder can factor in a patent case and a potentially lucrative payout. All IMO.

[hammerd2] 14/9/2017 15:11

400k bought yesterday from those 3 RNSs. Let's hope there's some bid press from those fine folk at Sky over the weekend, if not sooner.

[borromini1] 14/9/2017 12:23

JR + RC - my point was that IMG will know either way within six weeks rather than in four to five months time. Whether or not IMG choose to share that knowledge with shareholders is another matter. Apple have indicated their intention to comply with the current IMG licence agreement and continue to pay royalties due under it, IMG have not reported any explicit or suspected withholding of royalty payments so far. Apple's legal dispute with Qualcomm has an entirely different basis to it, Qualcomm have a monopolistic size of market share in mobile modems and demand a royalty based on the entire sale cost of the phone, IMG do not have anywhere near a monopoly in mobile GPU IP and only charge royalties related to the value of their IP content in the component. Why would Apple risk IMG obtaining a block on the import of iPhones by deliberatly withholding due royalties?

[richardc77] 14/9/2017 10:55

JR - I'd actually be surprised if AAPL didn't do this.

[jamesrowe] 14/9/2017 10:50

Borromini the danger here is that Apple deliberately withholds royalty payments as it recently did in a massive way with Qualcomm over its dispute about royalty payments. It could make life very difficult for IMG.

[orkney] 14/9/2017 10:10

Anandtech's article on the potential patents infringment, from April this year:

hxxp://www.anandtech.com/show/11243/apple-developing-custom-gpu-dropping-imagination/2

[borromini1] 14/9/2017 09:50

IMG will know the scope and royalty rates from the new A11 Bionic chip before the end of October ...

IMG year end is 31 April, this allows a one month period for royalty statements and revenue from most customer's quarter end dates to be reported and included in IMG trading figures rather than them slipping into the next quarter. Apple's fiscal year 2017 runs from 25 September 2016 through to 30 September 2017. Apple pay royalties at the point of sale and not as is usual at the point of manufacture. As the iPhone 8's will be available to buy on 22 September there will be reportable royalties relating to the new A11 chip by Apple's year end on 30 September, therefore IMG will know the scope and royalty rates by the end of October if not earlier. From precedent Apple Inc. is estimated to report earnings on 24 October 2017.

[jamesrowe] 14/9/2017 09:45

If IMG has not registered a Trade Mark for Tile Based Deferred Rendering (TBDR) which I am sure that they invented and use in all of their publicity material, then their competence on IP protection must surely be called into question. It would have prevented Apple in their presentation this week from referring to TBDR without acknowledging IMG. I suspect that IMG staff were so focussed on the technical side of patents that they may have ignored some of the important business stuff.

[rob_evans] 14/9/2017 09:35

milesy > Surely the whole point of an architectural license is that you can take the basic building blocks and turn it into something you can call your own "design".

Apple have had an architectural license for years, and have used their own design for part of the GPU for some time. However for the A11 they said:

"The iPhone 8 and iPhone 8 Plus have the FIRST EVER Apple-designed GPU"

Seems very clear to me, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to the contrary.

[dpmcq] 14/9/2017 09:28

It would be IMG going to bat (current or future owners)
If there were compensation/fine to be paid they would go to IMG and thus whoever owned IMG would be getting the payment.

I would not rule out completely royalty payments from the A11 at this point. I see what has been stated about the new design but have they stated they have used no building blocks from IMG IP within the new A11.

No position here, sold quite a while ago but still follow this as and have very fond memories of IMG and did well out of this share.

[pottsey] 14/9/2017 09:10

What happens if Apple are proven to be infringing IMG IP now but after IMG is sold is when the court case happens? I assume all the compensation/fine just goes to the new company. Has there been a case like this before?

[milesy] 14/9/2017 09:10

H2 - that was my thought...if Apple haven't categorically stated "no IMG IP" then "design" is a very loose term, and really no more than simple marketing speak as you'd suggested recently.

Surely the whole point of an architectural license is that you can take the basic building blocks and turn it into something you can call your own "design".

Anyway, let's just get that bid on the table.

[hammerd2] 14/9/2017 08:06

That's assuming they've told IMG that our IP isn't in A11 of course. IMG historically said they didn't know which SoCs were contributing what revenue til they got the royalty statement at the end of each quarter so it could be months yet before IMG even know (now that relations are so strained).

[dealy] 14/9/2017 07:48

There are trillions sitting in buyout funds and very little is happening. There also aren't so many targets in Tier1 countries and Tier1 sectors. IMG represents a rare opportunity imo in respect of buyouts

[blueteam] 14/9/2017 07:27

yes all going to be interesting, rather be in this game rather than waiting as it will move up very quickly if any bid news.

[theyak] 14/9/2017 07:23

It came from Sky, reliable apparently.

[dealy] 14/9/2017 07:19

Buyout activity has been incredibly subdued in the last 2 years. It's almost like these funds can't do 2 deals at the same time