Powerfilm Share Discussion Threads

[shroder] 09/3/2012 08:04

Powerfilm get's a mention on this blog;

US Army Eyes Flexible Electronics

Posted on March 5, 2012 by Doug Smock

The concept of roll-to-roll flexible electronics is advancing. Two American companies are demonstrating a "roll-to-roll" manufacturing process in which a continuous sheet of polyimide film is unrolled from a spool, coated with circuit-board-like patterns of silicon, and collected on another spool. The approach would replace chip fabrication plants in which integrated circuits and memory chips are burned onto crystalline silicon one wafer at a time.



What's unusual is the two companies referred to in the blog; I can find no details on Rolltronics although Holst has a web site here;



This is the first time I have seen them mentioned in connection with PFLM?

[shroder] 08/3/2012 15:47

Kits now feature on E Z Go accessories page;

TXT SOLAR TOP KIT

Go Green! Designed with Electric Golf Vehicles in mind, this eco-friendly Solar Top panel makes an impressive debut in increasing energy efficiency on your Electric TXT. The Solar Top Panel can reduce energy consumption by up to 25%, increase battery cycles up to 70%; thus extending battery life, and provide extended driving range on a single battery charge. Please Note: This item provides a solar paneled cover that fits over a standard 54" sun top.

[norbus] 07/3/2012 14:01

ITM Power {ITM) struck a deal with a major catamaran builder to power the Catamarans with H2. likely electrolysed from Solar

[shroder] 07/3/2012 13:57

Solar boats, makes sense






Some company background

[shroder] 06/3/2012 21:03

Third party company promoting the benefits of thin film solar,



Installation videos not bad



It shouldn't take too much in the way of sales to make a positive impact on Powerfilm's bottom line, cash rich with little in the way of liabilities.

[mattjos] 04/3/2012 15:14

Good luck in your investments Norbus

[norbus] 04/3/2012 12:29

I see no VHS/Betamax situation here. U R still way behind the knowledge curve and not meaning to be derogatory, I worry some might be misled reading your posts. As commonplace as the proposed German refilling infrastructure, Olympic Highway, Boeing use to refill UAVs, and on.. If it were commonplace, it would not be new technology now would it??

Knowledge is what one expounds, valid and worthy, not what one alludes to..

[mattjos] 04/3/2012 11:50

Norbus, I specifically used the term 'commonplace' in my comments ... I would equate that to the commonality of Wind Turbines, Solar Panels, Petrol Stations .. Localised H generation is not what i would term commonplace - yet.
I'm well aware of ACTA & its competitors, i merely used that name as the one that came to mind first. One of these compaines MAY prove to be the winner in this space and maybe the tech will be superceeded as in the VHS/Betamax competition. It's simply too early to judge.
As a regular traveller to Israel & a supplier to the company generally recognised as leading in the field of solar array design & manufacture, whose single largest factory is now being constructed in Israel, I do know something about the sector - does that meet your criteria for knowledge?

Anyway, as interesting as such a discussin might prove, this is the PFLM thread so i'll end it here for the sake of those interested in this company.

[norbus] 04/3/2012 08:40

Mattjos - 3 Mar'12 - 20:24 - 151 of 151
blahblah ..

1.i'm in the battery industry, of sorts, & keep abreast of devts so, maybe an advantage.
2.You may be right re. H power but, it is v v difficult to transport and store. until v localised generation and storage is commonplace, H power is merely a PR story.
3.there is localised H generation, pressurisation & storage via emerging technology (ACTA if i recall being one), it will be a long road & is at least 3 years off even something close to volume adoption. Keep your powdr dry on that one, is my advice.
4. I give up..

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No disrespect intended, but your views seem to come from Mars
1. Rarity of , and toxicity of earth metals, weight, cost, seem to be overlooked..I agree with Blah, on hysteresis
2. The leaders in the industry, list onsite generation as a key advantage; Your PR story has fooled a myriad of bluechip, including Honda, IBM, ... and government agencies.UK H2 mobility. EcoIsland, self sufficiency for IOW, Boeing for UAV fuelling, etc, etc, etc
give me the indication that you are not even in touch with developments
3. ACTA is an Italian rip-off excercise..Try looking at ITM Power, and Intelligent Energy, with dozens of blue chip partners.. Sorry you really are
years behind..
4. Only commercially viable renewable solar at present is in Israel; PV at 300
degrees C with cooling water used to square the cost effectiveness operation.
So sadly, I hope you can see why I must give up, and ask you to refrain from disseminating pseudo knowledge unless you show has a basis in facts.

[mattjos] 03/3/2012 20:24

blahblah .. i'm in the battery industry, of sorts, & keep abreast of devts so, maybe an advantage.

You may be right re. H power but, it is v v difficult to transport and store. until v localised generation and storage is commonplace, H power is merely a PR story.
That said there is localised H generation, pressurisation & storage via emerging technology (ACTA if i recall being one) but, it will be a long road & is at least 3 years off even something close to volume adoption. Keep your powdr dry on that one, is my advice.
Solar is much closer to mass adoption and we are now teetering on grid parity .. in fact, in some regions of solar, we are beyond grid parity but most do not yet recognise it. We're past peak oil, as most commentators would agree & the market would agree, given prices.
Solar is a now a cost-effective stepping stone .. most think but, i would argue that it is actually now the best 'answer' to low cost electricity generation (relative to hydrocarbons) ... PFLM's approach may yet be superceeded by other emerging technologies so, imo, an investment here is currently only awarded a punt status & the chart would suggest market agreemnt with that. I remain a believer here but but not yet an investor

[blahblahblahblah] 03/3/2012 20:06

mattjos - fair enough, had a quick look and it does seem that there are various mechanisms built in to counter that effect - with some quotes that batteries have been shown to last ~100k miles with little degradation in their range

that said, i still firmly believe that battery powered ev's are merely a temporary step along the way to hydrogen powered fuel cell cars

[mattjos] 03/3/2012 17:29

blahblah ... you refer to the 'memory' concept of batteries and that they should only be chaged as if they are traditional lead-acid batteries like those used in forklift trucks ie. wait until empty and then recharge.
This has long since been superceeded with modern battery technology as modern EV's employ quite a degree of 'intelligence' within the battery pack.

Personally i expect to see EV uptake increase rapidly from 2013 as the mainstream manufacturers incorporate items such as hi-rpm micro-turbines, fuelled by hydrocarbons, to provide in-motion battery topping in conjunction with induction charging whilst parked/motionless, recycling of braking energy back in to the battery & some type of solar power derived from the skin of the car itself.
Electric motor technology is evolving more and more rapidly now in conjunction with batteries ... a 200hp electric motor is now available that weighs less than 20Kg

[norbus] 02/3/2012 09:11

The factors mentioned are influencial, but i've seen other S reg entities trade effectively.. Look at turnover at CAP, clean air power, over last month or so.. PFLM has to address the issue if they are not to remain a moribund stock. How does a new investor buy into it??

[shroder] 01/3/2012 10:53

Norbus, It appears to be a common trait of Reg S type stocks due in part to non Crest settlement.

Also factor in free float, it's very small given the two major director holdings.

[norbus] 01/3/2012 10:42

Good to know they have appetite to go fot the retail consumer market..

What is not positive, is the illiquidity of the stock. I managed to buy 50k, on each of two days, then trades dried up ..illiquidity such as here can't do any good at all to the register..If there is a lurker from PFLM, perhaps he'd mention

[shroder] 01/3/2012 10:33

They definitely seem to be upping their game in terms of sales, new line by the looks of it (Amazon link not working)

[norbus] 01/3/2012 09:21

Bus stops, street lighting, Taxicab roofs , all come to mind as capture vessels..

The application that could steal the show, is a combination of easy cladding over roof and possibly suitable wall(s) of flexi film, feeding an electrolyser to a home refuelling unit , to provide 350/700bar H2, or 80bar self pressurising H2 for home refueller for a car , and to power a chp for the home or both.. Honda was working on the home refueller I believe..

[shroder] 28/2/2012 15:16

Hopefully where Powerfilm will score in part is on the passive assisted market.

This is where you don't solely rely on the panel for charging but instead use it to extend the range, similar to say the golf cart usage.

See E Z Go video


Retro fitting on buildings not suited to heavy panels could also see Powerfilm steal the edge.

If they get the manufacturing process (and cost) right this could be a huge global market, btw, here in Oxford diesel has hit the 150p per litre.

[norbus] 27/2/2012 21:46

Blah....

people have voted with their feet for the EVs..miles below forecast sales so far and now back to the future once more... I never accepted that beterplace would succeed and now i am certain it would fail for the fundamental false assumptions made : toxicity of batteries, rare metals required, real costs

[blahblahblahblah] 27/2/2012 17:15

@wetdream - correct, though with an electric vehicle, several plans involve replaceable battery packs (e.g. Better Place -

these have the duel impact of removing the lengthy charging time, and from having to worry about battery degradation (since that worry is now put on the battery provider's shoulders). However, with a structural battery, this would not be possible.

replaceable battery technology also doesn't address the environmental impact of the metals required for all the batteries (significantly more batteries will be required than if just one battery per car), though presumably they will recondition/recycle the old ones where possible. replaceable battery packs will also need to conform to some sort of standard sizes, otherwise you would be limited as to where you could change yours.

there's an urban legend about the space race something along the lines of - a regular pen relies on gravity to write, so the americans spent millions of dollars developing a pen that could work in zero g. the russians took a pencil.

point is, when you look at the complicated hoops that the battery proponents are jumping through, it strikes you that they're barking up the wrong tree, albeit a well subsidised one

@norbus - i'm not sure of timescales, but think you are broadly right too - using mobile phones as an analogy, you're supposed to wait until the charge runs out fully before recharging in order to get the most life out of the batteries, however, most people top up their charge long before that due to worries that they will run out of battery during the day. this results in a faster degradation of the battery life.

i think this effect will be more acute with an electric vehicle, since the last thing you would want is to be stuck somewhere having to do a 12 hour recharge, particularly since if you run out of juice more than an extension cable away from a charging point, your only option will probably be to call a tow truck.

(perhaps we'll see a rise in portable generator hire companies though!)

[norbus] 27/2/2012 16:22

if you believe an EV batterY CAN go 4/5 years before problems that anticede a w/off , you have faith in bucketts. Hysteresis loop memory likely to wear out within 18n months at best, so maybe you need to do the maths again

[wetdream] 27/2/2012 14:56

Isn't that a similar problem with electric vehicles - ie that once the batteries expire (after about 4/5 years), the car's technically a write-off!

[blahblahblahblah] 20/2/2012 09:46

Different system, but seems to be already out there -

Also, with a structural battery, once the battery's lifetime is over, you prob may as well throw the object away (it is integral to the object which presumably means that just like an ipod, the user won't be able to change the battery themselves). Useful for electric race car since they build a new car each season, but not sure if it would be a good idea in the long term...

[norbus] 18/2/2012 23:14

very
though may be years away?