Totally Share Discussion Threads

[sikhthetech] 17/1/2024 18:30

1gw

More of your usual poorly researched posts.

"Really interesting to see the liquidity acid test"

Yet TLY/Vocare was awarded a contract (extension) with 30% uplift on the original, valued at £13m for a year, only a week ago. This contract being awarded by NHS England.

That shows there's a deep flaw to your logic?



"As we should all know by now, Totally has material net current liabilities in its consolidated accounts:"

As explained years ago, that's the build and grow strategy. Your Byot(down 95%) and HVO(as Orph) used the same strategy but you don't have a problem there. Why's that?





"that intra-group receivable position highlights one of the key difficulties with trying to sell one or those urgent care operating companies"

Can you provide evidence that TLY are intending to sell any of their UC division companies or is this another story, fantasy?

All your stories pre-H1 have turned out to be incorrect, fiction. Is this yet another attempt at posting a story in the hope that you'll get one right?

[sikhthetech] 17/1/2024 18:09

Cameron,

"It seems that there is no consistent approach. In most cases they will want to see the last 2-3 years' accounts."

That's why I've been saying for ages that some posters don't understand how the NHS works nor the NHS/TLY model.

For years, 1gw has been basing his deramping on trying to portray that there's only 1 'NHS' and anything and everything will happen at all.
Pierre and others also believe there's 1 'NHS'.

TLY were awarded a contract in SE London, despite the NW one ending.




I've explained the structure in my post:


sikhthetech14 Jan '24 - 20:22 - 20979 of 20998 Edit


Pierre,

"One customer."

Another poorly researched deramping attempt by the derampers.


That shows you know absolutely nothing about how the NHS are structured.

(This is a copy of the post in reply to your mate Hallsworthy on lse)


To help you understand how the NHS operates and to show there's not just the 1 client, as I've shown previously.

The UK govn collects taxes and allocates funds to the NHS. Each of the 4 UK Nations is allocated funds for their use. So 4 separate NHS organisations.

The way those resources are allocated is down to each of the NHS organisations, ie per UK Nation.

There are over 60 'local health bodies' within the 4 UK Nations.

Each of the local health bodies decides the best way to allocate their funding, giving priority to mandatory services.

Republic of Ireland has it's own Health Service. RoI became an independent sovereign nation 100years ago!!

So, that's over 70 clients and potential clients already.

Then there's the other growing businesses, with higher margins, within TLY's diversified business model. Hundreds of clients/potential clients.

Therefore, TLY has hundreds of customers/potential customers


The fact you quote 1 says everything about your lack of knowledge.

NHS allocation of resources was made independent of the govn in 2012.



Keep up, it might help you post facts rather than misleading comments.

NHS resource allocation is controlled by the NHS not the govn

"Structure. The English NHS is controlled by the UK government through the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC), which takes political responsibility for the service. Resource allocation and oversight was delegated to NHS England, an arms-length body, by the Health and Social Care Act 2012."



With NHS England:

What are integrated care systems?

Integrated care systems (ICSs) are partnerships that bring together NHS organisations, local authorities and others to take collective responsibility for planning services, improving health and reducing inequalities across geographical areas.

There are 42 ICSs across England, covering populations of around 500,000 to 3 million people.

[1gw] 17/1/2024 16:28

I agree, savaged. My particular interest here was in the context of post 993 which suggested a liquidity acid test might be part of some NHS tender qualification processes. If that is the case for any of the tenders these Vocare or Greenbrook companies have participated in, it begs the question of whether a subsidiary should be regarded as passing such a test if it only does so by means of current assets which represent intra-group loans to a company which itself would fail such a test. The loans go in current assets, aiui, because they are repayable upon demand, but as a practical matter Totally plc would be hard-pressed to repay them at short notice - while this isn't an issue for Totally itself (as it knows the subsidiary wouldn't demand repayment) it perhaps ought to be an issue for any counter-party which is requiring tender participants to pass the test.

[savagedstock] 17/1/2024 16:09

re post 20994

thanks 1gw, i think this is what you expect from a buy and build strategy. Essentially the parent has stripped excess cash from the acquired companies to 1) continue buying 2) reduce dilution by raising less. This really only works when you are buying assets that are cashflow positive from day 1, and you can sweat the assets to generate the profit needed to repay the subsidiary loans. It also helps that the subsidiaries cannot call the loan from the parent - common directors etc - so TLY see it as a safe option.

Agree the BS is poor, but the focus is on how TLY management plan to sweat the assets to generate cash. Cut costs, yes. But beyond that what else is there? If they communicate the latter to the market, the share price might bounce.....

[1gw] 17/1/2024 15:19

And just for completion on the inter-company position, I think you can see the other side of the transactions in the Totally plc company (rather than consolidated) balance sheet and notes in the annual report.

On the balance sheet (page 69 of the annual report) the last 2 columns report the company position, including £42.3m trade and other payables as of 31st March 2023.

Note 21 on page 90 reports £40.5m Payables amounts owing to Group undertakings.
Note 20 on page 89 reports £13.9m as Receivables amounts owed by Group undertakings.

So I make that £26.6m net owed to group undertakings.

"Amounts owed by Group undertakings are repayable on demand with no fixed repayment date."
"Amounts owed to Group undertakings are repayable on demand with no fixed repayment date."

[owenski] 17/1/2024 14:56

Not sure what old Bob actually contributed to this load of rubbish business, I expect he's glad to have baled out, it's a complete embarrassment of a business.

Wendy might be confusing continually being 'busy' with actually making money.

Bargepole.

[1gw] 17/1/2024 14:43

Incidentally, that intra-group receivable position highlights one of the key difficulties with trying to sell one or those urgent care operating companies, if that is seen as a possible way out of Totally's current shareprice troubles. Any buyer would be likely to require the intra-group receivable to be settled at completion which would mean Totally would have to find £10.7m to repay Vocare Limited or £12.5m to repay Greenbrook Healthcare (Hounslow) Limited (both as of 31st March 2023).

[1gw] 17/1/2024 14:34

Thanks Cameron. Really interesting to see the liquidity acid test (which I understand from a quick google is a version of net current assets which strips out harder-to-liquidate assets such as inventory) on there.

As we should all know by now, Totally has material net current liabilities in its consolidated accounts: £15m reported in the interims, or maybe £12m if you correct for the apparent inclusion of non-current liabilities in calculation of the £15m. So on a consolidated basis, Totally plc might find it difficult to pass a liquidity acid test.

A curious thing I noticed with the main urgent care operating subsidiaries, Vocare Limited and Greenbrook Healthcare (Hounslow) Limited, is that they both report positive net current assets (accounts available on Companies House site).

How is this possible, when these 2 operating subsidiaries account for so much of the revenue and Totally plc has net current liabilities on a consolidated basis? The answer appears to be inter-company transactions. Specifically, both companies had relatively conservative balance sheets when they were acquired, with net current assets and a good wedge of cash. As far as I can see, Totally has achieved its own relatively aggressive consolidated balance sheet by taking cash from these 2 subsidiaries and spending it (e.g. acquisition of other companies). That presumably is done via an inter-company loan with the cash-rich operating subsidiaries loaning cash to another group company which then becomes a debtor.

If we look at the FY23 accounts for these 2 operating subsidiaries we see:

Vocare Limited
£13.7m current assets (almost entirely receivables)
£12.3m current liabilities
£1.4m net current assets

But the £13.7m receivables include £10.7m owed by group undertakings i.e. without the intra-group receivables, it would have large net current liabilities.

Greenbrook Healthcare (Hounslow) Limited
£16.5m current assets (almost entirely receivables)
£12.8m current liabilities
£3.7m net current assets

The £16.5m receivables here include £12.5m owed by group undertakings. So again, without the intra-group receivables it would have large net current liabilities.

So both operating subsidiaries would pass a net current assets test (if the test was the company had to have positive net current assets) and presumably a liquidity acid test, despite the parent company being likely to fail such tests on a consolidated basis.

Happy to be corrected if this is wrong, and I repeat that I am not an accountant. Just trying to provide a bit of illumination of the accounts.

[cameron72] 17/1/2024 12:18

I've done a bit of research to see what credit and financial checks the NHS uses in procurement. It seems that there is no consistent approach. In most cases they will want to see the last 2-3 years' accounts.

In some cases there are pass/fail questions in the tender documentation and these (in the documents I have looked at are based on:

Turnover compared to contract value
Liquidity acid test
Gearing
Interest cover
Net profit margin
Net assets

Most bids also use Dun and Bradstreet checks

[jugears] 17/1/2024 10:50

looks worse every time I look at the sp!

[quazie12] 17/1/2024 09:32

Exactly, it is the perfect example of a value trap. The business model looked broken 18 months ago and yet he kept banging on about all the lovely high margin income streams and competitive advantages that TLY had.

[muffster] 17/1/2024 06:51

Ignore Sikhs posts. He repeatedly posts about TLY on the value thread and they've called him out as it doesn't seem to have Value characteristics.

[pierre oreilly] 16/1/2024 22:29

Shreek, Your recent 'facts' post 20988 above is almost exactly the same as your post
20899 from 3 weeks ago.

I, and others separately, replied to that 'factual' post as completely disingenuous since it doesn't mention directly relevant information i.e. the profit which has now turned into a loss, the turnover dropped considerably in the latest accounts etc. They are the relevant factual numbers you purposely omitted. Nevertheless, having had the disingenuous nature of that post pointed out by at least 2 posters and maybe 3, to repost it 3 weeks later is just unbelievable. Are you here to inform readers or to purposely mislead them?

Answers to your original post, and post 20988, are available from 20899 onwards.

[sikhthetech] 16/1/2024 20:41

Facts:

Revenue > £100m
Cash as of end of Oct £2.7m (according to 1gw).

40% held by institutions.

All AGM resolutions passed.

Dividend paid after H1 end, so no cash problem at H1 end.

Simon Stilwell, new Chair, is co-founder of Liberum. Director of Gresham plc and ex-director of Growth Company investor Ltd, as well as many others.

The new chair bought 1.5m shares using his own money.






Those are facts, the rest is speculation, stories.

[sikhthetech] 16/1/2024 20:34

1gw,

Pierre was referring to cash. Are you moving the goalposts, again?

You tell us. What criteria are the NHS using before awarding contracts?
Be honest for once and none of your fantasy stories.

What credit checks are carried out and by whom?

Do you think the 'NHS' awards contracts without any DD, especially national resilience contracts, which was new only a year ago. The resilience contract is crucial for NHS 111's operation throughout the winter season?

Do you think Simon Stilwell is stupid and he joined TLY to ruin his reputation?

This isn't Byot, where the CEO did a runner or HVO where the CEO has huge options and so needs to talk the company up.

[1gw] 16/1/2024 20:20

It's not just cash though is it, it's the overall financial health of the company as evidenced by the financial statements if you're talking about due diligence or pre-qualification for NHS tenders. Cash is more of a liquidity issue - if they can't make payroll (or whatever the usual largish outflow is) at the end of the month then they're in trouble. In terms of financial due diligence by the NHS I don't think anyone ever offered a view on my previous comment on this, pasted below.

--------------------------------------
1gw - 04 Dec 2023 - 11:02:38 - 20764 of 20984 Totally Health - 2014 onwards - TLY

Does anyone know what sort of balance sheet checks are performed by NHS procurement as part of tender qualification or pre-qualification?

I'm wondering if that is an additional factor pushing Totally not to impair goodwill down to the sort of levels that would bring net assets into line with market cap.

i.e. a company with £35m of net assets and £15m (or £12m) of net current liabilities perhaps looks considerably stronger than a company with around £10m of net assets and £15m (or £12m) of net current liabilities.

[sikhthetech] 16/1/2024 20:04

pierre,

"If the NHS decided the current cash situation would fail due diligence, would that be a loss of 1 customer out of 80 as you claim, or would it be basically the end of TLY?"

The 'NHS' awarded TLY a national contract (extension) worth £13m, 30% uplift on original contract, only a week ago. I'd expect 'NHS' England to have done DD before awarding it.


"Totally plc (AIM: TLY), a leading provider of frontline healthcare services, corporate fitness and wellbeing services across the UK and Ireland, is pleased to announce it has been awarded a contract extension by NHS England to provide national NHS 111 contingency services for a further year."




As per usual, you and 1gw are talking nonsense.

[grahamwales] 16/1/2024 17:12

For all Bob Holt's talk seems he has made a right fk up of this company.

[savagedstock] 16/1/2024 12:21

looking at this as a punt - listened to the Company update. As expected, but important takeaway (for me) is the NHS is slowing down on how quickly it pays. Something have heard elsewhere, which suggests wider concerns - yes everybody will get paid, but it is the timing that is important....

this is now very much a company specific call, not a sector one. STT et al have highlighted the macro landscape, and the associated case; there will be more private sector participation over time, though which areas and how profitable this will be is a moot point. If the sector trajectory is supportive, then it is simply whether TLY is able to participate....

my hunch is not really - yes they have cut costs and the share price may well bounce but the new Chair needs to recruit a PE type team that sweat the cash....also bolt on higher margin technology services using the existing client base as a leverage; have mentioned this before, and it is different to new services.

[sikhthetech] 14/1/2024 20:22

Pierre,

"One customer."

Another poorly researched deramping attempt by the derampers.


That shows you know absolutely nothing about how the NHS are structured.

(This is a copy of the post in reply to your mate Hallsworthy on lse)


To help you understand how the NHS operates and to show there's not just the 1 client, as I've shown previously.

The UK govn collects taxes and allocates funds to the NHS. Each of the 4 UK Nations is allocated funds for their use. So 4 separate NHS organisations.

The way those resources are allocated is down to each of the NHS organisations, ie per UK Nation.

There are over 60 'local health bodies' within the 4 UK Nations.

Each of the local health bodies decides the best way to allocate their funding, giving priority to mandatory services.

Republic of Ireland has it's own Health Service. RoI became an independent sovereign nation 100years ago!!

So, that's over 70 clients and potential clients already.

Then there's the other growing businesses, with higher margins, within TLY's diversified business model. Hundreds of clients/potential clients.

Therefore, TLY has hundreds of customers/potential customers


The fact you quote 1 says everything about your lack of knowledge.

NHS allocation of resources was made independent of the govn in 2012.



Keep up, it might help you post facts rather than misleading comments.

NHS resource allocation is controlled by the NHS not the govn

"Structure. The English NHS is controlled by the UK government through the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC), which takes political responsibility for the service. Resource allocation and oversight was delegated to NHS England, an arms-length body, by the Health and Social Care Act 2012."



With NHS England:

What are integrated care systems?

Integrated care systems (ICSs) are partnerships that bring together NHS organisations, local authorities and others to take collective responsibility for planning services, improving health and reducing inequalities across geographical areas.

There are 42 ICSs across England, covering populations of around 500,000 to 3 million people.

[pierre oreilly] 14/1/2024 19:46

974 diversified business model.Diversified customers?One customer.That is exceptional.I simply don't see how you can ramp this as having a diversified business model when it has fewer income streams by a long margin than any other quoted company I can think of.Add in a single customer and it's pretty much unique as to having all eggs in one basket. We'll, not even eggs, perhaps chicks 6 months away from being point of lay.I had a single customer as a service provider for the last few years of my working life. One poor decision, one difference of opinion with senior managers, one falling out with peers, one long term illness, one cash cutback by my customer and my job was on the line. The risk here is huge.

[smithie6] 13/1/2024 19:32

Can you phps write that again but in English so that readers can understand it ??

-----

You wrote "then you will die".

I hope that the police read that & come to talk to you about that text.

Anyone clever enough to link the police to that post ?