Harry.....I've been quiet of late but I'm still here. Despite the threat of increased tariffs for goods manufactured in the U.K. or Europe, I still regard this share as being Trump neutral and thus far things appear to be developing nicely. Achieving sustainable profitability ASAP must be the key objective going forward: after that the general story should come more into play and plenty of influential people have eyes on here. Keep smiling Harry. |
I'm sure it's their own vector Phil and it seems to have done very little for Syncona this morning too. |
 SJ,
Probably a little before your time but IJ used to be one of the bulls here. Frequent contributor, regularly taking part with the entertainment committee sweep entries and such. Then came the fall when the market turned on us and something changed. Maybe it's PTSD or similar, but I became the whipping boy at that point. I don't know what he wrote the other day because he was filtered long ago, but I can guess. I also know that there are a few others here who will vote up anything which pokes me in the eye for reasons which may or may not include OXB.
Do I care? Honestly no. Would I prefer it didn't happen? Of course, but this is life and the reality of characters when given the shield of anonymity.
I've mentioned before that I got into the habit of doing the acting thread morale officer role when things weren't so great for OXB and I've never really stopped. I don't do it with my other shares and though I intend to see OXB out now, it's not something I'll ever do again.
If along the way it's helped out a few people with things they might not have ordinarily found / known about whilst sat in isolation with some shares they were concerned about, then I'm happy with that and will call the whole thing good. |
Do we think that is one of our clients Cousin? |
Autolus have received their FDA approval for commercial launch |
Dearie,dearie,me.
Harry has never made any secret of his ‘love’ of OXB.It is very much his hobby and he will hold the stock through thick and thin.His rose tinted glasses in no way detract from his exemplary knowledge of the company and the biotech industry.I have never looked to these (or any other BB) to give other than a very opinionated and subjective guidance of where the share price is heading.What Harry provides is an extensive knowledge of OXB which are the tools to make an educated assessment of how the shares should be valued.Whether his investment in OXB has been successful (which i understand it has) is irrelevant really.In an increasingly fickle world,i find Harry’s loyalty to OXB more worthy of praise than caustic wit. |
icejelly, that's a bit harsh mate. |
Maybe you have me filtered (can't blame you, I filter a few myself) but Phil's probably noticed that I replied to your same point back in September and linked to it when on the same subject yesterday.
In many less words this time, I think if OXB were a biologics basher who recently decided to have a go at CGT but had no vectors of their own to offer then it would be a really good comparison.
As it stands, probably not.
Unless they are distressed in some way I would be surprised if any of our large long term holders (who sat through the '21 peak) were interested in 3x today. It would have to be a lot more than that imho. My long term hunch has been that Novo are just waiting for better future numbers so that a multiple acceptable to them comes up with the right figure for the people who matter. |
Thanks. I still can’t see it. I must only get access to some of the thread |
You didn’t look very hard Xoptimist, we’ve been talking about it all afternoon. |
Greetings everybody. I am sure many of you will have clocked that Avid Bioservices was bought this week by a couple of large specialist healthcare private equity funds including the UK’s GHO. I am guessing you will have discussed this but I cant see any posts. Perhaps this got lost in the US election results on Wednesday.
I know many of you shot me down last time when I suggested that Avid was one of our better CDMO comparables – albeit operating in a slightly different space in antibodies.
However close you think it is to being a comparable I think it is nevertheless worth noting that Avid was sold for $1.1bn (£851m) – a 22% premium to market - or 6.8 times multiple of their forward guidance for FY2025 sales of $160-164m –17% growth rate over FY2024 (about half compared to our current estimated 3 year CAGR of 35%).
If Avid is a decent industry comparable then OXB on similar multiples would be worth £884m today (or £8,35 a share). (I have used Frank’s 2024 revenue guidance as Avid is already halfway through their FY2025 but of course there would be a case for OXB being valued on its forward revenue estimate of £175m of revenue for 2025).
Avid is in the larger antibody market and therefore carries a lower risk profile than OXB but this market generally has lower margins; more competition and lower barriers to entry. On the other hand, Avid is narrowly profitable, which is obviously a valuation plus.
Whilst many of you will intelligently argue that OXB is unique with much superior competitive advantage and R&D depth and knowledge (creating some kind of a moat) – nevertheless I would happily take 6.8 times sales this year and next (£1,19bn on FY2025 sales of £175m or £11,23 a share).
And if OXB is really so unique and superior and deserves a higher multiple than Avid’s 6.8 then hallelujah to that!
Sadly, we are a long way away from these valuation levels with OXB currently trading with a market cap of about £440m ($568m) or about half the valuation the PE guys have put on Avid. And we are trading at 3.4 times our 2024 estimated revenue and 2.5 times 2025 est.
If Novo does emerge as a potential buyer at least the Avid deal might establish a minimum benchmark – although perhaps there are other PE firms that can see that taking OXB private could unlock much greater value. In any event hopefully soon we will start to close what is a clear valuation gap with increasing benchmarks and comparables. |
All evidence which we have seen Dom (basically the interims presentation) is that it's all going very well. GMP suite utilisation for 2025 is in excess of 80% which is very good and of course where we make most of our money. This at a time when some of our competitors are struggling.
I would hope that both France and Boston know what they are doing as both worked on, then produced viral vectors before. Only real difference short term is that Boston is now going to be selling LV into the US region directly and France will be doing the same into the EU.
I agree about integration burning up management time, but I think Frank has already thinned out the duplications.
It's always been my understanding that the cGMP regs are what they are and the scientists will do what they do - with massive QA/QC/Validation oversight, so none of that is likely to change, even if the management structure above them does.
My glass half full here at the moment is that our woes are simply that not enough people know our story because it's smallcap and so they haven't looked.
Some news where OXB can tag on "profitability next year on £180m+ turnover" and people will look.
At the moment though? Still the covid vaccine manufacturer who doesn't do that anymore. |
Of course there IS another alternative..... that there is nothing very much going on at the moment and progress is stalled?
After all, management changes, integration issues, finding synergies between 3 centres can all burn up time. |
Unfortunately we have seen this at the back end of the year before. If there is some catalyst (most likely news) then great and we may get some good movement on the back of it. No news and we're likely to go sideways.
I do think we are due something and have been in that position for a long time now (my logic of this posted previously a lot) but the only time I ever saw shortcuts in process and regulation was during covid. So if it's a regulator we are waiting for then that will take as long as it takes. If it's a commercial supply purchase order which we are waiting for then that will get signed when the partner is ready. There's nothing that we (or OXB) can do to change that.
440k volume a few days ago vs what seems to be very low volume today is curious but probably means nothing. We have to wait until close of course to see what the real number is for today (there could easily be a lot of delayed trades yet to be shown). |
Lots of tiny trades.... is that a lack of interest? |
News required to get over the line before Xmas then but FT250 inclusion in 2025 seems very probable.OXB remains,in my book,a very attractive purchase in the UK equity market which faces a potentially arduous 2025.Starmer and Reeves have performed a Lord and Lady Macbeth on private enterprise-'t'were well,it were done quickly'-and hit business with sizeable cost increases.A situation which could be exacerbated by Trump's moves on the tariff front.Consequentially,Reeves calculations as to tax take could well prove optimistic as profitability slides Around 70% of demand in the UK is consumer driven and the Labour budget could well compromise that demand as tax related costs eat into corporate margins.In this context,OXB would appear as a relatively attractive investment. |
Speakers
André Raposo, PhD, Director, Innovation Department, Oxford Biomedica
Gareth McCathie, PhD, Group Lead, Oxford Biomedica
Thomas Evans, Principal Scientist, Oxford Biomedica |
All I want for Christmas is back in the FTSE250 Gareth (which you may have spotted me mentioning occasionally before... once or twice).
The trouble is that we are fast coming up to my final chance of the year (a fortnight tomorrow) and unless Mr Poonwalla decides to play Santa for us this Christmas and put an order our way labelled "Malaria" to be ready for the seasonal demand next year, then I'm thinking that there aren't many other things which could gain us a quid on the share price in 10 days. Maybe some good CAR-T news about myeloma, but I'm in wishful thinking mode at this point.
Long term then yes, I'm pretty convinced that Novo are the only probable buyers, but they are such a huge organisation. There will be committees to satisfy and such - they may just want OXB to be profitmaking overall or they may want to see France and the US holding their own independently, but I think that these huge organisations all share this same trait where they are happier to pay more later for a certainty than take a risk early with a bargain.
Maybe that will happen next year (i.e. Novo triggered by OXB profitability on routine non-exceptional work) or maybe it will be later, but of course that will have a lot more to do with our other major shareholders and what they are prepared to accept. For IM to give up their old French interests and for Vulpes to hand over their decades old shares (examples chosen as new and old there) I'm sure it won't be cheap for Novo Holdings (but then they are mega-wealthy and likely don't care). |
Great comparison and likely projected valuation HST.Is Christmas coming? Adverts on TV. |
Obviously I'm biased here Cousin, but I've done a turn on this once in post 8626
I still don't think Avid have any vectors to offer. What they offer is to work on / manufacture the one which the customer already has.
Yes I might be wrong but try and find their vector on their website.
As I mention in the above link / previous post, OXB say quite often that they think they are the only CDMO which is 100% pure CGT and has rights to 2 proven off the shelf vectors to offer for most of the market (AAV & LV) plus experience of working on c10 others including of course AV for the covid vaccine.
Seb said that most of our competition are biologics CDMOs who have dipped a toe into CGT. I think Avid would be covered by that description.
So no vectors of their own but a purpose-built 53,000 sq. ft. viral vector facility.
OXB have the vectors (first FDA approved LV in Kymriah has been a massive validation of what OXB can do) and OXB have 183,000 sq ft in Oxford, 96,000 sq ft in Boston and 123,000 sq ft in France.
That multiple would be reassuring if we were comparable, but imagine if their facilities were 8x as big, they had their own vectors and c40 customers. What multiple then?
Just to do my Peter the repeater bit to end here, I still think there's only one obvious buyer for OXB. Most valuable listed company in Europe and they already own 12% or so. |
Miserable drift downwards again... |
We're doing well keeping politics off the thread lads.
Still a chance of some news from OXB in the next 10 days, but it might revolve around me winning £103m tomorrow now. |
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won't be dull now will it in big pharma land... |
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