Intelligent Energy Share Discussion Threads

[filster] 11/5/2017 16:03

@Dean said "Filster, I don't agree ... IP is worth whatever you can get for it ... there will be quite a few interested in the tech ... car companies, competitors, Apple, GenSet manufacturers, even hedge funds and patent law firms who enforce patents infringements for a living. Until IEH start making money, they will need financing. Hopefully, the new BOD and management have a better grasp of the funding issues .... either they cut costs even more, get more business in (that seems to be their focus) and if deals aren't done, the address financing in good time and sell IP if necessary.

Looking at Ballard's deal, I can't see why IEH's IP should go for peanuts especially since they seem to have a lot more of it than Ballard. IEH have more IP than any other British company in this sector. Ballard only sold SOME of their IP to Audo / VW and fetched in more than four times the current market cap of IEH ...."

You may well be right. When Ballard sold their IP did they have enough money in the bank or a positive cash flow tho? That puts a very different perspective on a deal.

It's all a massive game of poker - bluff and innuendo.. So who knows? It really depends on how good the management team are at IEH.

As stated though, I no longer hold any shares in IEH - so wish all those who are long well.

[ibug] 11/5/2017 13:38

IEH COMPARED TO BALLARD

The notion that IEH can follow in the steps of Ballard in terms of business model and turn the business around is very real and highly likely imo. Especially when considering the superior IP portfolio of IEH compared to Ballard's and the involvement of IEH in Japan with Suzuki and it's global sales structure/ organization which extends from Calfifornia to China.

[ibug] 11/5/2017 13:30

HERE IS THE ACTUAL NEWS ITEM FROM LAST SEPTEMBER:

Volkswagen Group & Audi Accelerate Fuel Cell Technology Solutions Program With Ballard

September 26, 2016

For Immediate Release

VANCOUVER, CANADA and INGOLSTADT, GERMANY – Ballard Power Systems (NASDAQ: BLDP; TSX: BLD) today announced that automotive OEM Audi AG has issued purchase orders to Ballard to accelerate certain key development activities under the current long-term Technology Solutions program that Volkswagen Group has with Ballard.

As announced by Ballard in a February 11, 2015 press release, the current 6-year engineering services contract with Volkswagen Group runs to March 2019, with an optional 2-year extension beyond that date. The contract has an estimated value of C$100-140 million (approximately US$80-112 million at the time of Ballard’s press release). The resulting HyMotion program encompasses automotive fuel cell stack development as well as system design support activities.

[ibug] 11/5/2017 13:22

Here is a recent article about Ballsrds, it shows how similar the business model has been when compared to IEH with the same difficulties and hurdles. But the business is beginning to do very well, especially in China. Which is a similar vision to IEH.

Ballard, never profitable, remains in the auto game

Fuel cell pioneer still has a toe in the auto sector, its energy focused on the dramatic swing to hydrogen in China



RENEWED INTEREST

The VW deal, which runs to 2019, is one of four contracts Ballard has with automakers.

MacEwen would not reveal who the other clients are but said there’s been a recent resurgence in interest in auto-motive fuel cells.

“It wouldn’t surprise me that a year from now the number is higher,” he said. “We may have a Chinese customer as well.”

For now, though, the focus in China is on buses.

Ballard has signed deals with China-based clients to supply fuel-cell stacks for electric buses, primarily to act as range-extenders for battery-powered vehicles. Ballard recently announced the opening of a corporate office there with a planned staff of 20.

Ballard has bus contracts in Europe, but sees vast potential in China, where the government’s five-year plan has prioritized reducing pollution in its cities by transitioning to green forms of energy and fostering technological innovation.

In Canada and the United States, about 5,000 new buses go into service each year and in Europe, about 13,500. In China, said MacEwen, that figure can be between 200,000 and 600,000.

“The scale, the magnitude of order, is significantly higher,” he said.

Ballard recently announced a $25-million deal with Zhongshan Broad Ocean Motor Co. Ltd., which owns almost 10 per cent of Ballard common shares, covering technology transfer, licensing and supply arrangements to build fuel-cell modules.

MacEwen said BroadOcean has put in a purchase order for 10,000 FCEVs, including buses and commercial vehicles, to exploit the government’s high fuel-cell incentives.

“The expectation is that all of them will have Ballard technology inside them,” he said.

[dean windass] 11/5/2017 13:18

Ceres have some of IEH's old management working for them. Does that increase that chances some IEH tech is used in Ceres products? I'll do a search for Ceres patent applications. if they have none, they must be using other peoples IP.



No new patents since 2010 ...... nothing like IEH ..... so who's tech are they using?

[...]

hxxps://www.google.no/search?client=opera&q=ceres+power+share+price&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[dean windass] 11/5/2017 13:09

I think IEH have some useful IP regarding mass production of fuel cells which may be pretty lucrative in the near future .... it's frustrating waiting or news though ....

[ibug] 11/5/2017 13:03

If some of the IP were sold is would not be at an auction as suggested by stupid Flipster. Perhaps the most likely IP the company would sell is the 100KW auto HFC to a car or bus manufacturer; the value could be quite considerable imo.

[dean windass] 11/5/2017 13:00

Even though this news isn't about IEH, it shows the trend towards greater adoption of hydrogen fuel cells and assuming none of IEH's intellectual property is used by the wider HFC industry seems illogical bearing in mind that IEH have supposedly been world leaders in areas of this tech for years ..... and a while back I seem to remember that the idea was for "IP rich" IEH to make a large chunk of its income from IP was the goal. Sure, they will make stuff to demonstrate their IP and sell it but as far as i know, the idea is to do the R&D and let others license the tech and IP

May 11, 2017 Tami Hood
Hydrogen Fuel Cells in Germany - German Flag

Fuel cell developer begins engineering work at German facility
AFC Energy, a leading developer of industrial hydrogen fuel cells, has announced that it is expanding its presence in the German market. The company has officially begun its engineering work at the Covestro Industrial Park, which is owned by Covestro Deutchland. AFC Energy is leading this engineering work, aiming to review the use of new technology and predict the costs associated with using hydrogen fuel cells. The company is currently installing one of its 1 megawatt alkaline fuel cells at the Covestro facility.

Hydrogen fuel cells will use fuel produced by Covestro
The fuel cell system being installed by AFC Energy will make use of hydrogen that is produced by Covestro’s own hydrogen grid. The electricity generated by the system will then be sold to the local power infrastructure through long-term power purchase agreements. Because the system will be using hydrogen produced in relatively close proximity, it can be expanded in an affordable manner. AFC Energy may opt to expand its work in Germany in the future if demand for hydrogen fuel cells continues to grow.

Germany is becoming a prominent market for hydrogen fuel cells
Germany has become a relatively attractive market for hydrogen fuel cells. The country is pushing for vehicles to be made more environmentally friendly and fuel cells are meant to help in this endeavor. Germany is also home to a growing hydrogen infrastructure, which is needed to support the adoption of new clean vehicles. Companies like AFC Energy see potential in the German market due to the country’s prominent focus on renewable energy and using new technology to cut down on emissions production.

AFC Energy may expand operations in Germany in the future

AFC Energy is interested in demonstrating the capabilities of hydrogen fuel cells, especially for industrial purposes. The company has already conducted extensive reviews of fuel cell systems that highlight their ability to generate electrical power. AFC Energy may look to expand its current operations in Germany in order to break into the commercial energy production market in the future.

[dean windass] 11/5/2017 12:54

Filster, I don't agree ... IP is worth whatever you can get for it ... there will be quite a few interested in the tech ... car companies, competitors, Apple, GenSet manufacturers, even hedge funds and patent law firms who enforce patents infringements for a living. Until IEH start making money, they will need financing. Hopefully, the new BOD and management have a better grasp of the funding issues .... either they cut costs even more, get more business in (that seems to be their focus) and if deals aren't done, the address financing in good time and sell IP if necessary.

Looking at Ballard's deal, I can't see why IEH's IP should go for peanuts especially since they seem to have a lot more of it than Ballard. IEH have more IP than any other British company in this sector. Ballard only sold SOME of their IP to Audo / VW and fetched in more than four times the current market cap of IEH ....

[gybe] 11/5/2017 09:29

Thanks for the info ibug. They should clearly take more care with their wording!

[filster] 11/5/2017 09:20

Yes Dean an auction of IP would be worth considering but also if YOU knew that they were running out of money would you overpay or sit and wait for a cheap deal? That's the harsh reality of business.

I'm out of this share at the moment and do hope it does well but the clock is ticking and nothing has changed to make me want to jump back in.

As much as I love the technology, the application of the tech and the end result there are still too many issues here. Although saying that the share price does want to rise but there's still that nagging doubt hanging around. Financing is their highest priority right now.

It feels similar in many ways to the cable companies twenty years ago... 'All' they had to do was dig up the pavements install their fibre and everyone would be falling over themselves to use their services and they'd make pots of cash from data, television and voice traffic. Unfortunately a lot of them spent a lot of money doing this and the RoI started to slow and stutter and they were wiped out and consumed by bigger players.

I'm not de-ramping, I'm not ramping it's just plain facts. A bit like Icarus - have they flown too near the sun for too long? Only time will tell. Good luck!

[dean windass] 11/5/2017 01:43

Ballard were heavily criticised for selling their IP for a pittance compared to what the IP could have earned them over the years ..... IEH have hung onto their IP tightly .... "doing a Ballard" is always an option if necessary but I think IEH are playing the long game .... it may not be very exciting for traders or anyone wanting a quick buck but I reckon it's wise management.

[dean windass] 11/5/2017 01:40

I think IEH is undervalued hugely. Why? look at the Ballard IP deal with VW AUDI. Worth $80 million wasn't it?

Yip!



So IEH, with their huge patent portfolio, world-leaders in their field (hence them getting selected on multiple occasions to lead EU projects and having JVs with loads of big companies) have a market cap of about £16 million?

Oh please ..... it's just too silly to even consider .... their patents must be worth so much more than Ballards that I assume long before IEH get into dire financial trouble they will cogitate upon, openly .... or threaten all sorts of things but .... well, if YOU were running IEH and really needed money, having an auction of IP would be an obvious option but, with IP worth so much, I can't see them having problems raising finance on their terms.

[ibug] 10/5/2017 21:37

It was a poorly constructed assertion. I wrote to the company a while back about multiple listings and they replied by saying they could not pass on specific details except to say the business was doing well and the staff were excited about the future.

Read into that what you want....for my money the LSE listing is not of concern because in the scheme of things with an MCAP of 10 - 20 million the annual fee is only going to be 8000 - 20,000 GBP. But historically the MCAP had been very much higher which when multiplied across four other EU listings plus the cost of regulatory controls in terms of legal and accountancy fees would have been very costly.

The term being listed can be used as a collective term by a non accountant etc, we are dealing with technocrats/ boffins.

Hence the conclusion arrived at----this is not the catastrophic issue that has been banded about by trolls and shorter's on threads like this and LSE. This is moreover just an admin issue that needs to be far better organized and controlled.

It may well be that the business will move their listing to AIM where the regulatory controls are far more relaxed and far less expensive; but the annual fees will be virtually the same. For that reason I believe this is all about the cost of international listings.

Clearly the company need to do some explaining as I am sure they will sooner or later imo.

IN OTHER WORDS WE AS INVESTORS SHOULD NOT GET ALLARMED ABOUT SPECULATIVE GOSSIP AT THIS TIME.

[gybe] 10/5/2017 20:44

Well I hold and am not deramping but also have a concern with that listing statement.

"A major non-operating cost, of c. GBP1.2m per annum, or 7% of total non-financing cash costs, relates to being a listed company and complying with best practice corporate governance and Board structure. The Board believes that with restructuring complete and access to public market funding uncertain, this position should be subject to urgent review."

They don't talk about an issue with multiple listings. They talk about the issue of being "a listed company". Full stop. Why didn't they say there is an issue of being "a listed company on multiple exchanges". Maybe they should be more precise with their wording in future if they mean something different to what they have actually stated in black and white.

[ibug] 10/5/2017 17:17

FUTURE FUNDING OPTIONS

The company have accumulated a great deal of patents, the numbers are approaching about 2000. IEH might be able to off load some of their IP to raise funds as did Ballad Power.

I BELIEVE THAT BALLARDS SOLD SOME PATENT IP TO VOLKSWAGON FOR about 100 million Euros last year. And they have far less IP than IEH with their approx: 2000 patents; every month more patent applications are lodged in the US.

Here are a few recent patents to show the progress:

Intelligent Energy Limited patents

Date Intelligent Energy Limited patents (updated weekly)

04/20/17 Cooling plates for fuel cells
04/13/17 Fuel cell system
04/06/17 Apparatus for determining reactant purity
02/23/17 Flexible fuel cell power system
02/09/17 Connector system for a fuel cell stack assembly
02/02/17 Elastomeric hydrogen reactor with clog-less filter
01/26/17 Power supply apparatus
01/05/17 Fuel cell cartridge
12/08/16 Water recovery in a fuel cell system



Here are the most recent Ballard patents for comparison:

Ballard Power Systems Inc patents

Date Ballard Power Systems Inc patents (updated weekly)

02/09/17 Use of neural network and eis signal analysis to quantify h2 crossover in-situ in operating pem cells
12/08/16 Two-layer coatings on metal substrates and dense electrolyte for high specific power metal-supported sofc
01/07/16 Assembly for making a fuel cell component and a using the assembly
12/10/15 Solid oxide fuel system
12/03/15 Protective and precipitation layers for pem fuel cell
11/05/15 Method for producing a catalyst for fuel cells
10/22/15 Solid oxide fuel cell power plant with an anode recycle loop turbocharger
10/08/15 Responding to positive rate of change of fuel cell voltage during power reduction transitions
10/08/15 Low cost fuel cell components

09/24/15 Fuel cell membrane electrode assembly fabrication process




IEH IS CLEARLY A WORLD LEADER FOR PATENT APPLICATIONS IN THE FIELD OF HFC DEVELOPMENT imo

[dean windass] 10/5/2017 17:04

As you say Norbus, it's this issue that keeps you out of IEH. You can't see selling IP as a way out?

[norbus] 10/5/2017 16:58

Dean

you need to understand the terms of the £30m Con LN stk

[dean windass] 10/5/2017 16:51

Well, this is how IEH gets some added value from the SMILEFCSC. Even though Toyota (see the link to Mirai production line video I reproduced earlier) have Mirais in production, IEH's experience with the production line i Japan run with Suzuki has helped win them this lead role in this project .... I mean ... Siemens .... for god's sake ... one of the biggest companies on the planet are also into HFCs ... if you look at some of the companies IEH were up against, there is serious kudos getting this role in the project and, as I said earlier, in 31 months, this project is supposed to be delivering 50,000 mass produced HFCs a year ..... so I reckon that long before 2020, we'll be getting quite a bit of significant news on top of the stuff to do with combined heat and power, drones, maybe even some news on cell towers and using HFCs in planes, trains, leisure use (boating, caravaning, off-grid, gensets .... military, embedded HFCs in tablets, robots .... liberating things from being wired to a wall socket is going to be the future ....

[ibug] 10/5/2017 15:55

MASS PRODUCTION SCHEME ---- THIS CONTRACT PATERNERING with Toyota through an EU grant gives the company a great deal of credibility and credos which in itself will certainly help the company land more deals at a time when its value is depressed.

It will also enhance the IP portfolio for other fuel cell products to be mass produced. Therefore, the most recent contract award potentially has a great deal of added value that is likely to pay dividends for the business.

[dean windass] 10/5/2017 12:30

I think we should trust the company on this since, post Brexit, the European listings may start to be more useful and IEHs EU bases will help them continue engagement with the lucrative EU projects and eventual market. It helps IEH avoid being labelled a "British" company ... if necessary, they could list "Grenoble" as their HQ much as many UK companies have created entities in the EU so they can avoid Brexit's chaos

[ibug] 10/5/2017 12:13

H2 NETWORK

Intelligent Energy‏ @intellenergy · 43m43 minutes ago

IE's Lee Juby will be speaking #fuelcells at the Midlands Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Network event @ClimateCSolutio

Be part of Birmingham and the Midlands becoming a leader in the Hydrogen economy and learn how the region can benefit from the investment, jobs and profile from this exciting developing sector

A number of current hydrogen fuel cell projects will give brief presentations showcasing activity in the region. The aim of the event is to increase knowledge & awareness of how this technology will fit into the future energy mix and encourage synergies and partnering.