Cloudtag Share Discussion Threads

[bbmsionlypostafter] 25/4/2017 10:16

From 10 seconds ago. 11 years in the making for this little cracker, and they have apparently got their AIM listing back!


About us

Cloudtag Inc. (CTAG: LON) is a London Stock Exchange AIM listed company bringing accurate, medical-grade technology to the consumer health, wellbeing and fitness markets. Cloudtag brings together specialists in nano-electronics, exercise and sport science, software development, mobile commerce and data analysis. Onitor Track is powered by Cloudtag technology. Onitor Track is founded on eleven years plus of research, bringing proprietary sensing technology using contactless sensors to market and will be initially targeted at the weight loss and fitness markets.

[loglorry1] 25/4/2017 09:57

Not quite a scam but I lost a packet on Sterling Resources averaging down when it seemed they were just about turning a corner and would unlock assets after multiple delays. Ultimately, cash flows when they did come dissapointed and bond holders took all the assets. It doesn't have to be a scam for this mindset to cost you a lot of money. It's very hard to resist putting in more cash to keep an investment alive rather than crystallising losses so I have some sympathy for investors here.

The professional investors I know will sometimes average down but they have absolute set in stone limits on % of portfolio they'll invest and will not continue to put money in. I hope to learn from that.

[andy] 25/4/2017 09:49

HITS,

I know someone who fell for the 419 scam too, he lost £39,000, and it went exactly like that! Every time he hesitated, they said OK you have lost it all, then the carrot was dangled again, and he fell for it time after time.

I had a chat with him but he wouldn't listen. It cost him his job too.

[headinthesand] 25/4/2017 09:19

...And on that basis, the SAG might as well be "supportive" (which is indeed a tenable though somewhat contrarian position).

As is known, the argument goes like this. If the whole thing's a scam, then PIs are utterly screwed anyway, regardless of anything they might do. On the vanishingly small possibility that there is a teeny nugget of value within the company, the SAG might as well support the existing BoD at this very late stage.

Of course, this does NOT mean putting in yet more funding - and sadly I do suspect that ABH will look to squeeze extra last drops of cash out of anyone he can - including existing shareholders.

It's all so nigh on identical to a classic 419 scam... "Just a little more... we're almost there and you'll get a multiple payback. Would you seriously miss out on this chance for the sake of a few extra quid, given the thousands you've already put in? But if you don't invest more, the company will have to fold and you'll lose any chance of a return... where's the sense in that?"

That's my prediction...

[loglorry1] 25/4/2017 08:58

If you take the view that CTAG is basically honest but has suffered some unfortunate delays then anything robust the SAG does is more likely to bring about a less favourable outcome for shareholders.

This is the key point. If there is nothing worth saving then at worst a SAG might end up causing shareholders to put more good money after bad. At best its pointless. If there is some valuable IP created from the £8-12m spent (from memory) then it's possible there is something worth saving. However the overwhelming evidence to date suggests that there is nothing worth saving here.

There have been years of promises and almost nothing delivered. All the founders have sold out. The CEO has only ever taken cash out and put nothing back. They've been kicked of AIM presumably for something fairly serious. They've made RNS statements that have been at best grossly misleading and at worse out and outright lies. The list goes on and on.


So with 99% certainty there is nothing worth saving here and thus the CTAG SAG even if it was operationally effective has nothing to work with.

Even if we assume there were assets worth saving as WShak1 says they'd be stripped before shareholder could benefit from them.

[sweet karolina] 25/4/2017 08:37

Having co-founded 2 SAGs in the dim and distant past, I have a lot of sympathy for those trying to run the CTAG SAG - herding cats is an apt analogy. If you take the view, as most on here do, that CTAG is a fraud then nothing the SAG does will change the ultimate outcome - even putting more money in as that will go the same way as the rest. If you take the view that CTAG is basically honest but has suffered some unfortunate delays then anything robust the SAG does is more likely to bring about a less favourable outcome for shareholders.

I did think that Amit would see the SAG as easy marks and would set up a relationship where he had the SAG leaders eating out of his hand and then use them to do the dirty work of extracting more money out of trapped shareholders. It would take a real conman and not just a dodgy businessman to actually look his marks in the eye, as opposed to doing pod casts and staged video demos. Maybe Amit just is not that sort of heartless conman, or maybe he is playing the longer game where he treats them mean to start with and ends up getting them to beg him to let them put more money in. Time will tell.

[wshak] 25/4/2017 08:29

headinthesand,

If you accept (which I don't) that CTAG has anything of value, then the only thing to do is vote out the board and find an honest one.

I tried this at MinMet PLC, but was double crossed at the last moment by a major shareholder, who was paid off for his shares. With the accompanying delay, whatever cash remained was stripped out (although most of it was gone anyway) and nothing left but a worthless carcass.

Even if the SAG start to make the correct decisions, rather than hopeless ones, there's nothing to be done. With CTAG being what it is, the money is gone, and the IP can be mortgaged away in a heartbeat.

[andy] 25/4/2017 08:28

HITS,

I totally agree with you, Amit will show no respect for weakness, and has proven that already, IMO, by refusing to answer the questions put to him by the SAG at their meeting.

I am convinced Amit will continue to play hardball knowing that people are anxious to protect their "investment", and he will eventually prevail by convincing the SAG he has a working product, and they will back him financially as a result.

[headinthesand] 25/4/2017 08:12

In all honesty, I cannot see any way this is going to end well. The result of the vote on Resolution 5 should become clear today and I expect it to be voted down - but from the Action Group's point of view, that begs the currently unasked question "What next?"

Even presuming there is some grain of viable/commercialisable IP protected technology (and that's not a small presumption), I don't think ABH will alter his PI contemptuous stance in the least and expect him to play hardball.

What the SAG needs to realise IMO is that drastic, robust and confrontational action is instantly required. Unfortunately, I suspect its approach will be meek, respectful and conciliatory, in the belief that it needs to be "supportive".

All one can do is advise to the contrary... but the consensus will prevail.

[andy] 24/4/2017 13:39

Nod,

Well let's look at it logically.

The most motivated people are Amit and management, and shareholders with large personal holdings.

I think it's safe to say Amit will control Osuna's shares, and those of management and insiders, plus his own obviously. Even allowing for a sneaky 22 million warrant conversion (AFD did this in similar circumstances a few years ago!), it looks as though Amit could control around 20%, possibly a bit more, but probably not a lot, this is a retail share.

On the SAG side, they have been advocating voting down resolution 5 from the start, and claim around 50% of outstanding shares in support.

I think it's a fair assumption that those SAG members holding large blocks will be highly motivated to vote 'no', so with 900 members, they have a lot of clout, and almost certainly more than Amit's votes, IMO.

So the highly motivated groups that are likely to vote on both sides would favour a "no" vote IMO, even if the small PI doesn't vote because he's not so motivated because of the effort involved.

I think no will win, but will Amit accept that or try disallowing votes on a technicality? That's the big question in my view.

[nod] 24/4/2017 13:01

That's 35.06% sort of accounted for.Or, put another way, 64.94% of shares are unaccounted for.

[nod] 24/4/2017 12:54

All those major Nominee accounts add up to 21.29%There will be smaller brokers with combined holdings below 3%How many PIs plan to vote and can they all prove their respective shareholdings.

[andy] 24/4/2017 12:25

Nod,

Here you go, the nominee accounts will be PI's surely?

Name Shares %

INVESTOR NOMINEES LIMITED 28,096,187 6.27%
CREDIT SUISSE CLIENT NOMINEES 20,150,879 4.50%
HSDL NOMINEES LIMITED 16,408,647 3.66%
TD DIRECT INVESTING NOMINEES 15,892,363 3.55%
HSBC CLIENT HOLDINGS NOMINEE 14,832,528 3.31%


OSUNA LIMITED 30,975,000 6.91%
AMIT BEN HAIM 15,087,640 3.37%

[nod] 24/4/2017 12:18

Offshore related holders also included Golden Bridge Services (an Amit company), Did they convert any of their 22 million warrants to shares and keep below the 3% ?

I have not added up the major holdings reported on the CloudTag web site. How many shares are unaccounted for?

[nod] 24/4/2017 12:03

"Of the shares in issue 30,725,507 (6.86%) were considered not to be in public hands."

This cannot include Osuna because it holds 6.91% (or at least it has not been declared as controlled)

Amit holds 3.37% which suggests that there is another 3.49% held by related parties.

We can assume that CTAG also has influence over the Osuna holding, which seems highly probable given that they were a founding investor with the directors and are an offshore company to conceal ownership.

This would suggest the Board has control over at least 6.86 + 6.91 = 13.77%

What happens when you add in other related parties below 3%

We don't know who they are but could include PreciousBlueDot, IMEC, possibly Corvus and Amersham.

[andy] 24/4/2017 11:49

Jaknife,

Yes all that scammed money isn't going to help him in a Spanish jail!

Good to see one of those guys getting his just desserts, there seem to be so many of them, and they do it with impunity.

[andy] 24/4/2017 11:47

Wshak,

Yes the SAG has some experienced professional people on board but what they need is some market savvy people as well!

Quite often the most 'experienced' people are considered to be those with large holdings!

Tim seems a decent guy, but I think he needed to approach the odd bear as well, because they could see what the others' couldn't, so they could certainly assist too, IMO.

As I think, Amit is in control, and he's showing it by keeping the SAG waiting for answers that surely he could have written in a few minutes?

[wshak] 24/4/2017 10:43

Log,

It's interesting to follow the LSE board, where people still think there is some hope, and haven't yet realised what CTAG is. Apparently, there are experienced professionals who are shareholders and are involved in the SAG - it beggars belief.