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CLLN Carillion Plc

0.00 (0.0%)
Last Updated: 00:00:00
Delayed by 15 minutes
Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Carillion Plc LSE:CLLN London Ordinary Share GB0007365546 ORD 50P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  0.00 0.0% 14.20 0.00 00:00:00
Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price
Industry Sector Turnover Profit EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap
Last Trade Time Trade Type Trade Size Trade Price Currency
- O 0 14.20 GBX

Carillion (CLLN) Latest News

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Carillion (CLLN) Discussions and Chat

Carillion Forums and Chat

Date Time Title Posts
13/10/202323:42Carillion - Charts & News11,714
29/9/201707:34Carillion downturn. Why?13
14/7/201720:26*** Carillion ***2

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Carillion (CLLN) Top Chat Posts

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Posted at 13/10/2023 16:21 by marktime1231
I wasn't aware nor am I particularly bothered whether you were ever in or jumped ship, or were counselling from the sidelines, back then I was using another board. From memory there was a pretty even and heated contest on II between those pro while the share price was still in the £2's and those against. After the bubble burst from 10 July announcement onwards a number of posters joined in with the confidence of hindsight to say this had been seen coming, it was inevitable, how silly we had been to hold on etc. I'm not sure which group you fell in to, but I can imagine you rubbing salt in to people's wounds, no doubt to say everyone who was caught out was naive. Some people called it right, whether luck or judgement.

I am happy to admit I made a big mistake, one of a number of bad investments over the years. CLLN was a deliberate dividend trap and I was suckered. All punters make bad judgements or get unlucky, just look at the naked trader for examples, maybe even you? I have done my best since then to learn some lessons, including at times digging deep past the rns headlines in to the detail of accounts. CLLN (Phil Oakley) taught us to look at the average debt being carried, in concert with movements in receivables and payables, rather than just the headline year end position. Even so, serious debt problems and project difficulties at CLLN weren't on the books, they were deliberately concealed at every level of the organisation so that even the (complacent) auditor's attention was not drawn to them. I held on because there was a chance that the known problems were balanced by the positive signals.

Anyway, it has long flowed under the bridge and out to sea.

On the topic of compensation, I note that KPMG settled a £1B+ suit from CLLN liquidators pwc was it last year even before FRC concluded their investigation. So creditors got some money back. A shame that the auditor doesn't admit any liability to shareholders. And we should be allowed to carry losses forward until we need them.
Posted at 12/10/2023 13:33 by jaknife
"There is no protection fund in case a stock goes bust,"

Why should there be? If people got compensated when businesses went bust then you'd have a whole army of investors throwing cash at speculative projects knowing that if it all went wrong then somebody else would reimburse their losses.

As to suing KPMG, or the directors, you should do some research on the principle of "locus standi". Shareholders do not have the appropriate "locus standi" to sue KPMG who owe their duties to the company directly and NOT to individual shareholders. The same comment applies to directors. You have no direct contract with the directors and the directors owe you no duties as their obligations are to the company.

You could do some quick research on t'net and you should be able to quickly ascertain the above. However, the normal thing that happens is that a load of shareholders get together and form a shareholder action group ("SHAG"). They raise some legal fees and end up blowing their money on a legal opinion that says "You don't have the necessary locus standi". I guess at least they find new friends to share their gripe with?!

Posted at 12/10/2023 13:04 by marktime1231
There is no protection fund in case a stock goes bust, so where do you get compensation. The company and former directors are broke. We could sue KPMG who do have some money, but even while they are found guilty of "exceptional failures" they are not fundamentally responsible for the mismanagement and lies so compensation would be trivial pennies in the pound. And who is going to stump up and pay for the years of legal wrangling, such as the specious argument that the auditor has no liability towards shareholders because its report is for the board.

Reeves who chaired with gusto the committee enquiry in to the CLLN collapse and promised to make them pay, as she is now promising to make covid fraudsters etc pay, is not at all interested in compensation for the capitalist investors who gambled and lost.

Where does the record FRC £21M fine of KPMG go? (HM Treasury).
Posted at 15/1/2018 14:44 by hpcg

1: Spend some time educating yourself, read a few books, get an understanding of accounts, get an understanding of charts (some people are fundamentals only, some technical only, I couldn't do without both). Get to understand how the market works, why share prices moved the way they did on announcements. I'm afraid the message boards are your enemy here; there is no way to distinguish between the wheat and the chaff until you already know what you are doing.

2: Be prepared to later dedicate time to researching investments and continuous learning, honing of skills.
3: Don't expect to get rich quick.

There is no easy way I'm afraid.

If you want some actionable things to limit losses for now:
1: High dividends are a warning sign.
2: Low PEs are a warning sign.
3: A share price trending lower is a warning sign.
4: Cut your losses as soon as you reasonably can. The earlier you do the easier it is.
5: Everyone has losers. Everyone. Every single person without exception. Successful people take their loss and move on, unsuccessful people "wait to get their money back".
6: Monitor your performance. Until you get a reasonable success rate keep stakes in individual companies low, and your portfolio diverse. Stay in the game until you can reliably make money.
7: The investment industry will say you can't time the market (because they want your fees all the time). You have to be able to time the market, and each instrument within it. Nothing goes up for ever and one day this bull market will at least correct. Same with individual shares. It's difficult, and no one is perfect. You have to find your own style here.
Posted at 13/1/2018 16:50 by cc2014
Thank you for your post Winston. Sorry to hear of your losses on CLLN.

It's always good to hear from people who are close enough to what's going on to give us a real insight.

I had always known that the issue for CLLN was going to be the subcontractor and supplier credit terms but it had not entered my head that this would lead directly to an increase in costs. All this in an industry with really tight margins.

I suspect but do know for sure that this is what has led to the £300m short term liquidity problem, which the banks think is too low. I could hazard a guess but if this is going on at every site, it might take a £750m+ to inspire enough confidence in the supply chain to keep the work going.

But I suspect even that is not enough now. I don't know what the liquidated and ascertained damages would be on a new hospital 6 months on Midland Met and Liverpool isn't handed over either. Maybe £50k a week? I know CLLN will try to mitigate the LAD's by blaming the client's design team but they will be wise to that.

So, even if the government handed over £750m, CLLN are just going to be back with their cap in hand in a years time when the clients won't pay due to LAD's and CLLN can't get their retention money.

Is it any coincidence that CLLN are asking the government to guarantee payments on on-going work on a timeframe. As they are worried they won't get paid by the client i.e. the government due to non performance on the contract.

What a mess.

Oh.. and then we get to who's going to provide insurance on their performance bonds and at what cost? An absolute mare.
Posted at 12/1/2018 22:58 by pyueck
Guys everybody knew there would be huge dilution before today. But let’s remember that a d4e swap will mean the company has less debt and the company a) potentially will survive and b) the leverage for existing shareholders will be lower.

The share price is 14p, a year ago it was over £3. The fall is not without good reason, I.e the companies profits were a lot of rubbish. However to say that the value of the shares will be 1p after a d4e swap is wild speculation. We don’t know the terms yet. Debt holders won’t be able to convert debt that is trading at 20p in the pound to the current value of the share at face value. They will take a haircut, in conjunction with existing shareholders also having a rights issue or more likely and open offer. Even if the share is diluted 90% this would in know way mean the share will be 1p. It will depend on how much the share is diluted and what the value of the newly structured company is. Hence why banks are keen to ensure the turnaround plan is realistic before they ageee to it.

Again I am not underestimating the scale of the issues and total collapse is a real possibility still. However the rns I think at least shows that administration is not on the cards this weekend (I thought it may well have been) and that discussions with lenders are ongoing. A big part of me thinks lenders will not want to see this one go south, they have nothing to gain from it. So much is up in the air any speculation of what the dilution will be or what the resulting share price after any deal will be is just speculation.

All I think is that today’s share price reflected the incorrect news that the creditors had rejected the proposals and that administrators were waiting at the door. I don’t think it’s quite that bleak, yet ...., and for that reason I see a rise on Monday to around the 20p mark. If a deal could be thrashed out, even just to sort out the short term financing, before Monday it could reach 25p. But as I say the long term value, who knows.
Posted at 12/1/2018 09:21 by cc2014
A company where they need to keep the juggernaut rolling as they need cash from the next contract to pay for the current one, as in the construction industry you tend to get paid in 14 days but pay out in 30, 60 or 120 in CLLN's case.

Cashflow is easy if you're expanding, if you contract you have a problem.

Then came their expansion into service contracts where there are large up front costs which leach cash at the beginning and then become cash cows at the end. CLLN took on too many of these and tried to finance it from the construction cashflow. They knew they were in at a loss but needed the cash.

If you go and look at the most recent analyst presentation on their website you will see charts of typical cash flow for construction and service contracts.

Somewhere there is an admission they were funding the service contracts from construction contracts but I don't have a link handy.

Finally there's CLLN's reputation problem. Example where they can't get paid for the middle east job where we don't even know if they can collect the £200m or owe even more. So, they have to compete on price, which is a problem in an industry on tiny margins, especially where your interest bill is far higher than your competitors.

Got to go now. Need to focus on some construction companies where the share price going up. NMD yesterday up around 15%. CTO on the move over the last few weeks and buyers out again today. I know it's great to catch a falling knife and multi-bag but there are lower risk trades out there which can still multi-bag. Go look at CTO and read the last 500 posts and then make a decision. NMD too Opportunities in other sectors too
Posted at 09/1/2018 08:30 by cc2014
Monday's news. I assume it explains the share price rise in that a company that should be bust is being "supported" albeit not directly by the government

The government has been putting pressure on lenders not to pull the plug on Carillion as the company’s fight for survival intensifies.

City sources told the Enquirer that ministers and civil servants have been exerting their influence on the company’s bankers to buy Carillion time.

One said: “This is one of the most political situations I’ve seen.

“The government don’t want to see thousands of job losses and have been leaning on the banks to keep things afloat.”

Carillion is due to present a new business plan to its lenders this week in a bid to reduce debt and win more funding.

A series of profit warnings have seen the firm’s share price collapse by 90%.

The source said: “Think about it logically. This is a firm around £1bn in debt with a market cap now of just £80m.

“Those numbers say it should have gone by now but it’s still in business.”

Carillion employs more than 40,000 people and is a major supplier to Government.
Posted at 08/1/2018 09:52 by fenners66
Shorts were 15.59% in December and 16.2% now - so depending upon the time frame you can spin it either way.

One thing that does not change which ever way you spin it - this is still the MOST shorted stock on the market after all this time.

Debenhams is the second most shorted stock and look what happened there - share price down 38% in 12 weeks and bad Xmas trading update.

Seems to me these shorters are getting more accurate in their assessment of poor performing companies ( that is companies not share prices).
Posted at 22/12/2017 10:24 by wallywoo
hey carbon, we have had traders being bullish on clln since well over £2 share price Was just trying to even out the bull comments. I am not trying to patronise you, just provide balance.

I believe this small bounce this morning will get sold into, later in the day. And ultimately the company share price will stay low until it enters administration.

There were lots of thumbs up for bull comments then too. Did not do them any good though

time will tell who is right
Carillion share price data is direct from the London Stock Exchange

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