Cattles Share Discussion Threads

[rfinance] 13/4/2010 08:47

SpectoAcc - No you cannot say it more plainly, and now you can stop. I don't have an avid interest in this bunch of crooks except that I almost certainly have lost some money. However, it seems to me that something is still working within the business. Badshah's idea of a new business model is not so outlandish.

[spectoacc] 13/4/2010 07:29

FFS Badhshah!! Surely the above posts lay it out in a way you can understand. Cattles cannot, under any circumstances, pay off its debt. Debtholders rank above shareholders. I can't put it any more plainly.

[badhshah] 12/4/2010 19:25

Desperate for a new information now, an update is due but I think the company will be able to pay off its debt and moveon with a new business model. Not really sure whether we current shareholders will be part of it or not.

[deanforester] 12/4/2010 17:35

Much like the UK Budget. A slight deficit of £167bn.

[badhshah] 12/4/2010 12:24

Under the heading of CURRENT TRADING go to the last paragraph of Group Structure.


Group structure


The Group is now split into three main trading companies, WFSL, CL Finance
Limited ("C L Finance") and The Lewis Group Limited ("Lewis"), the latter two
companies being owned by a sub-holding company, Lewis Group (Holdings) Limited.
WFSL and Lewis Group (Holdings) Limited are in turn owned by Cattles Holdings
Limited, which is owned by Cattles. Cattles also owns Compass Credit Limited
("Compass"). All shareholdings are 100 per cent.


WFSL, CL Finance and Lewis are guarantors to all five main banking facilities
being: the GBP500 million 2004 syndicated facility; the GBP800 million 2006
syndicated facility; the GBP215 million 2008 syndicated facility; the GBP75
million 2004 bi-lateral facility; and the GBP135 million 2008 bi-lateral
facility.


WFSL and Compass are guarantors to the remaining 2001 US Private Placement Notes
of GBP70 million and $70 million and the 2006 US Private Placement Notes of
GBP21 million, $75 million and EUR6 million (together the "Noteholders").


Cattles Holdings Limited is guarantor to the GBP75 million, GBP800 million and
GBP500 million bank facilities referred to above. Compass is also guarantor to
the GBP75 million bank facility referred to above.


At 30 September 2009 Cattles had an inter-company receivable with WFSL of
GBP2,896.1 million (9 March 2009: GBP2,915.2 million).

[spectoacc] 12/4/2010 07:38

Bloody hell Badhshah - you mean it's taken you this long to misread the Sept t/s?

I couldn't find that second para of yours (having done a search of the t/s for "receivables") but the above is clearly nonsense; try this, from the same t/s:

"As at 30 September 2009, loans and advances to customers amounted to
GBP1.9 billion and gross external borrowings amounted to GBP2.7 billion (GBP2.3
billion net of cash at bank)."

That's £800m short as at Sept 09 [ignoring the cash in part due to running costs, wage costs, further write-downs & litigation]; now consider how much of that £1.9bn they'll actually collect (increasingly less, as the early collections are the easiest). Also consider further write-downs & debt interest in excess of what they receive.

Total shortage will be well over £1bn IMO, in a few years' time.

[badhshah] 11/4/2010 19:26

SpectoAcc, this following information is taken from 25/11/2009 trading statement:

"At 30 September 2009 Cattles had an inter-company receivable with WFSL of
GBP2,896.1 million (9 March 2009: GBP2,915.2 million)."

At the end of 30/09/2009 receivables were gb2,896.1m( that is after all impairment charges and write down etc.) and cash at the end of Dec,2009 was approx. gb400m, and the debt was gb2,700m.

Now according to the facts provided by the company total assets by the end of 2009 were GB3,300m approx. and total debt 2,700m.

From this point how can you tell that ctt will only be able to collect GB1,200m/1,300m by the end of the rundown period out of GB2,896.1m receiveables at Sep.2009? That is an impairment of Approx. 1,600m/1,700m GB for the next 2.3 years.........its unbeleiveable!

[killieboy] 09/4/2010 19:31

SpectoAcc - thank goodness someone does not have their head stuck in the sand and realises that CTT is worth nothing to shareholders (apart from a CGT write off (in time)). Regards

[spectoacc] 09/4/2010 07:29

Rfinance - sorry, but it couldn't be more of a "foregone conclusion".

When the dust settles, Catttles will be short of a billion-plus quid. The banks and bondholders have absolutely no chance of being paid in full. Shareholders rank below them.

Want more proof? Cattles have put a "nil value" claim in with the Inland Revenue. Woul they risk doing that if there was any, even incredibly remote, chance of shareholders getting anything?

The scandal is that it's taking so long to be able to book the tax loss.

[wsm812] 08/4/2010 22:38

I'd prefer they were incinerated, just like they do in some other countries

[rfinance] 08/4/2010 15:38

Killieboy - whereas you may and probably are correct, in your assumption, it is not a foregone conclusion. However, with everyone (auditors, consultants... etc) feeding out of the trough it probably is a foregone conclusion! A pleasant distraction would, of course, be that the perpetrators of this crime are incarcerated, just like they do it here in the US.

[killieboy] 08/4/2010 13:59

Thanks for that! I still maintain that shareholders will get nothing back from their investment in CTT or do you know something I do not?

[rfinance] 08/4/2010 13:56

plonk - inferior or cheap wine. A plonker is one who indulges in same. The rest one can figure out.

[killieboy] 08/4/2010 12:52

Explain "plonker"!!

[killieboy] 07/4/2010 19:01

You win some - you LOSE some - thats the way it goes and unfortunately as a shareholder you will not see a penny.

[early retirement] 06/4/2010 07:33

i want my cash back!!!!!!
bstrds!

[badhshah] 04/4/2010 01:26

how could that be possible, Mach?

Early RETIREMENT, ITS A LOST CAUSE NOW.

[alistair4444] 25/3/2010 09:33

Will be very interesting how this one plays out ? + or -

[spectoacc] 25/3/2010 07:25

I think the main prob is that it may not be next year either, judging by how long they reckong Welcome will take to collect out..

[grahamburn] 24/3/2010 16:16

I think it can safely be assumed then that Cattles will not appear on the HMRC recognised Negligible Value list before 5 April 2010, especially as the shares are still only suspended rather than de-listed. So any loss relief claims will have to wait until Cattles appears on the list which will be during the next tax year at the earliest. Depending on individual circumstances, that makes CGT planning harder/easier!

[spectoacc] 24/3/2010 10:38

Suggest you drop info@cattles an email - I'd not believe anything I read on a BB either! But FYI, this is what I got back from them:

"A Negligible Value Claim has recently been submitted to HMRC (within the 2009-10 tax year) and we are awaiting their response. At the moment it is not possible to say if, or when, HMRC will accept the claim.

Cattles plc"