Uil Share Discussion Threads

[morton2011] 27/5/2022 12:59

They did not buy any 2026 and 2028 zdp as such. These were the shares that were not bought by those rolling over or new subscribers as they both under subscribed. So UIL bought its own debt from the proceeds of the new subscribers. They then hoped to sell them later at a premium or just at par. If they sell them below par then that would create a loss on the P&L but does create cash. If they just hold them to maturity pretty neutral as long as they are redeemed as expected when issued.I would suspect they will try and create 2030 zdp at higher interest rates and sell those as rollovers for 2022 and 2024 (I have some of these). My preference would be to keep reducing the debt in absolute terms which they have done in last few years. They needed shareholder approval from ordinary and zdp to take on more bank debt beyond the £50 million in the past , not sure if that changed when they moved listing.Liquidity in trying to sell any level of ordinary shares is very poor as tested a few times in last month.

[vacendak] 27/5/2022 11:24

I understand your concerns, the ZDP classes used to trade at a constant premium, even for the long dated ones. Right now, the only ones not on a discount are the 2022s (due end of October) for which, as you say, they should indeed find the cash.

They must have bet on things to carry on as they were when they decided to hold all those 2026s. Maybe the plan was to release some 2026s to help pay back the 2022s and 2024s. Right now, it is not working.

As you have said, it is unlikely they will create some 2030s to soak up the remainder of the 2022s that have not rolled-over. It is both a bit late and they would have to cough up far above the 5.5% of the 2028s considering the way interest rates are going up now.

On the plus side, the amount of debt per class is decreasing, so it should become less and less painful to redeem.

[Data from April factsheet]
ZDP 2022 - 2024 - 2026 - 2028
£50.6M - £36.5M - £30.1M - £25.6M

I am sure they were hoping for a bigger take up at the 2022 rollover offer. Also the 2026 and 2028 represent a few millions £ that may end up being cancelled (currently held by UIL).

As for me, I think that if they can pay back the 2022 without too much of the trademark ICM accounting wizardry, my ZDPs all the way to the 2028s should be safe.

[cc2014] 27/5/2022 07:51

Over the last couple of weeks I've sold my 26's and 28's. I didn't have any 24's and I've kept my 22's.

April's factsheet shows:
Gross Assets £497m, Debt £196m,Net Assets £301m. The NAV was 359p/share

As of yesterday it would look like this:
Gross Assets £453m, Debt £197m,Net Assets £256m. The NAV is 306p/share

The 22's which has a size of £52m are due for repayment later in the year and as far as I can see UTL has little cash so that becomes bank debt unless UTL go for some 30's, which seems unlikly to me. The bank will be happy to lend them that as the ZDPs will be subordinated to them.

If you re-do the numbers based on what the market thinks UTL is worth at 202p/share you get:
Gross Assets £366m, Debt £197m,Net Assets £169m. Based on 202p/share


The level of gearing was starting to concern me and I didn't like being at the end of the stack. I'm a pretty cautious person and the risk/reward didn't feel quite right when I looked at how the rest of the market had moved since the start of the year and what returns I can now get elsewhere.

[vacendak] 24/4/2022 18:47

The latest factsheet says that Resolute has been up 36.0% in a month. Yeah!
Well, since it had been dangerously heading for 0p, any kind of good news (they finished some maintenance work in Mali) was going to lead to a big jump.
They would need a lot of 30+% month on month to get back in the black with this one.

To be fair, they could not have predicted the behaviour of the junta over there.

[spectoacc] 10/1/2022 15:37

Ha ha best of luck @Morton2011 - quite possibly!

[morton2011] 10/1/2022 15:32

I might have bought yours @specto !
I dipped back in last week having been on the sidelines other than ZDP for a couple of years.
Director buys is as they just take fees in Shares as I read it so I ignore them.
SOMERS big holding in Resimac seems securer with the share price having stabilised/ bounced back from presumably someone selling in the last 2 months as Annual results were good.
I noted the problems with PCF bank but its not that significant to Somers. Duncan Saville still trying to weave all these investments together when it suits him, for example lots of interconnected pieces here:
hxxps://www.allectuscapital.limited/post/on-a-quest-to-make-sme-asset-financing-decisions-instantly.
ZETA should be a useful hedge for mining exposure particularly to EV with copper, nickel and cobalt from Canada and Australia protecting against some of the other more risky investments.
UEM still the same and pleased to see some more direct investments in UIL. With inflationary pressures preferred the share price to the 2028 ZDP.

[spectoacc] 10/1/2022 13:40

I'll keep an eye on this thread too :)

Not sure how long I held these latest ones - 2 years maybe? Remember buying on a 40p spread at one point!

Agree re ZDPs - not that I've ever held any - but the equity just too opaque unless cheap enough.

[vacendak] 10/1/2022 12:55

Told you to get out when they went from main to specialist market some years ago.
Exiting UTL near the time of the announcement was one of my very few "perfect timing" moments.

I had enjoyed a good twenty year with them and I still trust them to repay their ZDPs, but UTL itself had become a bit too "original" for me, for lack of a better word.

Oh well, you are on other stock/threads I have interest in, so we shall keep on chatting there. :)

[spectoacc] 10/1/2022 11:48

All out of UTL - directors still buying, NAV is so-so - but the plan to get it up to within 80% of NAV in the "medium term" with buybacks just doesn't seem to be happening. Divi while-u-wait, but there's better homes for the cash atm. Even if that's in cash. And can never resist a profit.

Good luck holders.

[spectoacc] 18/11/2021 16:18

UTL (& TFG) got to be amongst the strangest listed co's on the UK market.

[vacendak] 10/11/2021 18:20

The Edison report is a good read, it gives all the major shareholders, mentions they are mostly Saville's vehicles. It talks about the low free float, big fees and gearing.

While they are paid by UIL, it is not really sycophantic and a pretty fair expose.

The performance at 5 and 10 years is not that great, but not bad either. Roughly 8 out of 17 peers as defined by Edison.

[vacendak] 20/10/2021 15:50

My ZDP 2028 make me sweat a bit at a 4% discount.
They are still covered at more than 2.2x, so I guess Mr Market expects even more inflation that they would safely provide by their redemption date.

[spectoacc] 20/10/2021 11:50

Uninspiring lately. Buyback seems to be on random days, but need it to narrow the spread.

[morton2011] 23/9/2021 12:04

Me too on just in the shorter ZDP's. The recent monthly factsheet shows some small changes but UIL still remains an odd mix which only really Duncan Saville and ICM control or understand. The reason they care about the share price is as some of the shares are pledged for loans imho.
The ZDP price is another good indicator of how Mr Market regards UIL and ICM. The prices remain low and the yields quite high relative to its peers particularly for the longer dates which remain at a 'discount' yielding 6% for the brave. UIL still hold 5 million 2026 and 2028 ZDP they had to 'buy' to get them subscribed and have not been able to sell.
Not looked at the AR but the monthly factsheet shows some changed. UIL putting in funds to ICM Blockchain Asset Fund. Normal story, UIL put up the money and ICM get the fees.

[vacendak] 23/9/2021 10:06

The AR is out.

"Pleasing" read, as they tend to use that adjective a lot, when it comes to a one year performance. Then again, this is all about timing. The performance graph in the Chairman's introduction is now rebased to June 2020, it used to be "donkey's years to present" to flatter the curve.

Big talk about having reduced the debt/gearing with the partial rollover of the 2022 from earlier in March. They still complain about the discount, which is "all the market's fault", despite their buyback efforts. Maybe if Mr Market himself could price the components, he would be keener to reduce the chronic discount; especially now that the managers decide by themselves what most of the NAV should be.
Still, reducing the debt/gearing is good news.

The company's holdings are more and more concentrated, Somers is now close to the 50% limit (the one that got revised earlier this year). The "U" in UIL ltd may once have stood for "Utilities" but that is certainly no longer the case.

I have only read the intro, and will not really bother going into the details. The ZDP cover has increased and since these are now my only UIL holdings, I only need to be happy with that.

[spectoacc] 15/9/2021 16:29

Buyback has gone very quiet.

[vacendak] 02/7/2021 16:49

Your problem might be a silly spread when you sell.
Best of luck anyway.

I have only read the latest factsheet (May) today and they now have "ICM Mobility Ltd" in the fourth spot. This looks like a "platform" for transport and associated technology. Our old friend Vix is in there.

[spectoacc] 02/7/2021 16:37

First one in ages, & not seen that volume through the market:

"The Board of UIL Limited (the "Company") announces that on 2 July 2021 the Company purchased for cancellation 125,000 ordinary shares of 10p each at a price of 274.96p per share. The lowest/highest price paid per share was 273.50p/280.00p respectively."


Fairly confident continuing to hold, think they may be breaking out, assisted by NAV sleight-of-hand & buyback.

[spectoacc] 01/7/2021 15:01

There's that NAV. If nothing else, it's going to make the discount suddenly look more enticing.

@vacendak - can see an argument for qtly NAV done like that - daily seems almost pointless under current circumstances.

[vacendak] 29/6/2021 15:58

@CC2014
Indeed, this is a bit dodgy.
Maybe they should adopt the same solution as ICM - was it for Zeta? - and change to an auditor more willing to see things their way.

The ideal solution to UIL's NAV would be to employ an independent third party to calculate it daily instead of doing it on the kitchen table between friends.

[vacendak] 29/6/2021 15:48

If one looks there and searches for FRS 102 they can get to this:


"For financial instruments held at fair value in the statement of financial position, a financial institution shall disclose for each class of financial instrument, an analysis of the level in the following fair value hierarchy (as set out in paragraph 11.27) into which the fair value measurements are categorised. A fair value measurement is categorised in its entirety on the basis of the lowest level input that is significant to the fair value measurement in its entirety.
. Level 1: The unadjusted quoted price in an active market for identical assets
or liabilities that the entity can access at the measurement date.
. Level 2: Inputs other than quoted prices included within Level 1 that are
observable (ie developed using market data) for the asset or liability, either
directly or indirectly.
. Level 3: Inputs are unobservable (ie for which market data is unavailable) for
the asset or liability."

Basically, they are doing Somers on "level 2".
So, the way I understand it, is that if they did not have their "platform" structure and held everything directly under UIL Ltd, they would not need to do these language calisthenics as everything would remain at "level 1".

Now, taking the excuse of doing level 2 because Mr Market refuses to trade in Somers when it is only listed in Bermuda and with a ridiculously low free float (owned by the usual suspects) is for another topic of discussion.

[cc2014] 29/6/2021 15:29

I know this is not the thrust of your post SpectoAcc but one wonders how Somers are valuing PCF Bank since it's now been suspended for 7 weeks, can't get it's account agreed by it's auditors and seems to have deliberately been misreporting it's CET figures under instruction of senior management/staff some of whom seem to have been kicked out.

PCF about 6% of Somers assets so not really mission critical but interesting nonetheless

[spectoacc] 29/6/2021 15:06

I know two regular posters who'll have something to say about this :))


"NAV based valuation for Somers

The Board of UIL Limited ("UIL" or the "Company") announces that the Company will move to valuing its investment in Somers Limited ("Somers") at its net asset value ("NAV"). This will lead to an increase in UIL's reported NAV. For example, had this valuation approach been adopted for UIL's NAV as at 28 June 2021, announced earlier today, the reported NAV of 395.11p per share would have increased to 435.09p per share.

The low level of transaction volume in Somers' shares led to UIL, earlier this year, moving away from valuing Somers at its share price to a valuation at a 15% discount to Somers' NAV. UIL also stated that it intended to reduce such discount later in the year. In light of accounting best practice and continuing low volumes in Somers' shares, it is therefore now considered appropriate to move to valuing UIL's investment in Somers at its underlying NAV and this will commence with UIL's NAV as at 29 June 2021, to be announced tomorrow."


Leaving aside points for others to validly make, wonder what this means for the "medium term target of 20% discount to NAV" for the share buy-back. Which already appears to have fallen by the wayside, since we're at 395p NAV without this.

[spectoacc] 24/6/2021 16:23

Buyback seems to have disappeared again, but 381p NAV (albeit a "UTL NAV") to 256/268 s/p.

[morton2011] 10/6/2021 11:55

Classic ICM at Zeta. They get horizon gold spun out of Panoramic Resources. Underwrite and contribute 5 million aus dollars to recent fundraising at Horizon. Horizon then a few months later lend (back) 5 million aus dollars to Zeta at 5%. ICM earn lots of fees no doubt.15 June is last day for capital bonus issue at Zeta so expecting some ICM alchemy with that around UIL shares and loans.