Patisserie Share Discussion Threads

[konradpuss] 02/2/2019 21:30

It's interesting that PV did close some branches that obviously did not work out over the last two or three years prior to the demise. I can think of two that I passed regularly - Fulham Broadway and Belgravia.

These must have been basket casse even with the fraud going on.

I just cannot wait to hear what the former finance director has to say.

I still think it started small as all frauds usually do - we will put it right next year etc. then he/they did not as things got worse.

[topvest] 02/2/2019 21:15

pvb - yes, there was no disclosed short-seller at the time of suspension. They were obviously asleep on the job!

[blusteradjuster] 02/2/2019 20:33

The LJ effect?

“Serial proven winner” - move along, nothing doing here.

Hiding in plain sight.

[pvb] 02/2/2019 20:27

@topvest
This was a poor business - the profitability did not look credible versus Greggs, Costa Coffee and other high street chains. Any short seller could have spotted it. They must be kicking themselves for a missed opportunity!

Curious that, AFAWK, no serious short seller did spot it. I wonder how they do get to select their targets.

[konradpuss] 02/2/2019 20:24

Well I would say that is a major red flag.

Surely there would have to have been a note in the accounts that there was an outstanding balance owned to a director entity? A sort of director's loan.

I guess these things are small beer in respect of a large public company. It's only the small guy with the diligent firm of auditors that would have picked it up and made a note in the accounts.

[johnwise] 02/2/2019 20:09

One senior insider said that the annual rent on the property, some £40,000, was never actually paid. The outstanding balance ranks alongside other unsecured creditors

[konradpuss] 02/2/2019 20:07

topvest O.K. the position as a landlord to LV on one unit might not have been material although best practice would have said disclose. The important matter is how long was the rent on the unit unpaid?

[topvest] 02/2/2019 19:56

Related party transactions are not disclosable if not material to the individual concerned. To be fair to the auditors and Luke Johnson on that one, half the rental cost is not material to LJ. Its loose change! Not best practice disclosure at all, but not a cardinal sin in my view. The undisclosed options are a different matter though as they were clearly material to the directors involved.

[konradpuss] 02/2/2019 19:37

Well that does not bode well for 'my old mate' LJ.

As May West said "I was Snow White then I drifted".

I wonder how long the rent was not paid?

On the Risk Capital site there is a gofer that works for him dealing with his private stuff.

Ring, ring hello Luke the rent on your unit let to PV has not been paid since .......

Oh dear perhaps he drifted

[diku] 02/2/2019 18:56

Just like investors have to take responsibilities the insiders do have their greater fair share of responsibilities...If you are presented with dud accounts but approved by the auditors then what?...it was a good business once upon a time without fraud...all business are good to start with but when they struggle the element of fraud or cooking of the books creeps in...so it is the responsibilities of people at the top to be vigilant...in hindsight we can spot everything !!...

[topvest] 02/2/2019 18:24

I would disagree. As investors you have to take responsibility for your errors of judgement. I’ve certainly made a few, but there is normally an error in you investment thesis. I’ve never lost money on a great company, only on poor businesses. This was a poor business - the profitability did not look credible versus Greggs, Costa Coffee and other high street chains. Any short seller could have spotted it. They must be kicking themselves for a missed opportunity!

[diku] 02/2/2019 17:52

No:6 in post 2938 not necessarily a valid point...all too often it is no:1, 2, 3,& 4 that are the problems that need to be dealt with...upholding high responsibility...if they are failures then no;6 stands no chance...

[masurenguy] 02/2/2019 17:38

Spot on - very good post topvest !

[topvest] 02/2/2019 15:30

You need to be careful what you wish for. If all audit firms get wiped out, then so does the capitalist system!

Grant Thornton did not cause this fraud...they didn't spot an intricate fraud. I guess we will have to await the results of the investigation in a few year's time to see how bad the audit really was. I think its wrong to just blame the auditors. OK, they have a share of the blame, but that's it. The careers of those involved are probably finished anyway.

Order of responsibility in my view is
1. The directors and management that perpetrated the fraud.
2. Luke Johnson.
3. Non-Executive Directors.
4. Grant Thornton for not finding it.
5. The bank who issued an overdraft and didn't check the financial statements; and
6. Investors for not applying common sense on the sky high net margins and straight line growth on all measures whatever the conditions.

[still waiting] 02/2/2019 14:00

Expect the GT partners to be wiped out by fines and client defections.

They are toxic now, would you want your business associated with them ?

[safman] 02/2/2019 12:50

Good quote...

"Audits have become a cruel deception on people. Auditors collect vast fees and deliver little."

In addition the entire management of PV need to hang their heads in shame..

Shame on you...

saffy..

[dmipne] 02/2/2019 12:37

Grant Thornton is a shambolic mess and should fold, its assets being taken over by some other firm on the cheap, and it’s partners consequently face financial ruin.

However the only firms capable of taking them on are realistically the big 4 which would further concentrate the market. Or, just possibly, BDO, who might be capable of forming a competitor to the big 4.

[safman] 02/2/2019 12:25

I suspect they will start to blame each other at some point..

Some trying to wiggle out blame already..

Staff not paid..



saffy..

[topvest] 02/2/2019 10:40

Blimey that's a big cash outlay for Grant Thornton.

[meijiman] 02/2/2019 10:35

'Failures of the utmost gravity'. Who is going to take the rap for that? Heads must roll. A fish rots from the head.

[diku] 02/2/2019 10:04

It is all getting picked up now...what about the failures since the tech boom & bust cycle of 2000?...

[carcosa] 02/2/2019 09:38

"Grant Thornton has been ordered to pay an audit firm record of £21m in damages to former client AssetCo after a High Court judge branded its auditing of the company, which nearly collapsed as a result of an accounting scandal, to be a ‘flagrant breach of professional standards’, exhibiting failures ‘of the utmost gravity’"



The Judgement:

[diku] 02/2/2019 09:00

Is it becoming norm that company failing is good news for Accounting giants...as they pick up fees...so the box ticking is self full filling prophecy...