Ocean Wilsons (holdings)... Share Discussion Threads

[meanreverter] 18/11/2023 08:01

LotM — Your analysis is spot-on. Given the fat fees creamed off by the Family and their fund-managing mates, the question arises of how big a discount should apply to the shares. The market thinks around 50%. That is fair enough for me. I hold OCN because I like the underlying business, which helps to diversify my portfolio, and it pays a decent dividend.

If the share price got anywhere near book value, I would start to look elsewhere.

[last of the mohicans] 17/11/2023 22:16

Some of you might want to take a few minutes to go to

hxxps://ri.wilsonsons.com.br/en/publications/quartely-results/

From there select the 3rd Quarter Conference call transcript & read it - some interesting insight in there

------------------------------------------

CousinIT,

At the moment, we pay small fees to the directors, fees & bonuses to Hanseatic, fees & bonuses to the fund managers / private equity companies etc that Hanseatic invest the money in.

I would much rather have seen the directors get higher fees & the cash invested in 1, 2 or 3 funds that match the Index quoted to us.

Those fees would be much less than we're currently paying & even increasing the fund size by 140% I doubt it would be costing us any more per year than it does now.

You would hope the independent (non family) directors would stand up for the interests of the minority shareholders. However from the public comments the Chairwoman has made to date its clear that, that is not the case.

There is No justification for the portfolio being 80 odd holdings. The smallest 40 could all double in price (which is impossible because of shorts & longs etc) & it would make very little difference to the overall portfolio value.

Its all just smoke & mirrors, to fool investors.

LOTM

[cousinit] 17/11/2023 08:26

LOTM

I have alot of sympathy with the argument. I would point out that had the investment portfolio had performed better at a gross level, a decent chunk of that would have been extracted in performance fees ;)

To some degree, this has always been an investment alongside the families with the hope that they try to generate long term value. It seems that prior generations were better at that aspect.

I would hope that the Board fees that we are contributing towards do add some independence, even if these are just nudges. In the current era of corporate governance, the potential for iNEDs to resign on principle (and be public about it) should carry some weight.

[last of the mohicans] 17/11/2023 08:17

Hi ajbird,

Family have been invested in OCN for a long time.

There are quite a few here that have been invested much longer than us !

I've always had a sweet spot for the Brazilian business & its potential.

You could say why not just buy Wilson & Sons shares directly now there listed. Well I can't from the UK & besides it makes no sense to do so when each OCN share = 7 Wilson & Sons shares.

One day something will happen & the true value of the company realised. In the meantime if you got/get in at a decent dividend yield you'll do better than cash.

I'm not sure it will happen in my life time, but at some point the rest of the family should get a good benefit from it.

Unless of course the 2 family's do something rogue, which is why you always keep an eye on it.

I wouldn't encourage you to sell it, there are times to trade some of it for sure to try & increase the holding slowly but surely to lower the average price & increase the yield further, but that's about it.

It's more about the mindset & needing to understand that you have no control over what's going to happen, but at the same time can make your feeling well known to the owners & there inadequate performance.

Good Luck

LOTM

[ajbird] 17/11/2023 06:27

LOTM,
Your posts are very discouraging for anyone holding OCN shares which leads me to ask why you bother to have such an active interest in this tightly run company that seems to hold little hope for us private investors? I hope that you don’t mind me asking. I’m thinking of selling my holdings based on your seemingly well informed opinions.

[last of the mohicans] 16/11/2023 20:52

CousinIT


Thank you for making me look at Hansa Trust again.

What was printed today was a total load of codswallop.

If you take 2 seconds to scratch below the surface you'll see that the vast majority of the non OCN holdings in the Hansa Trust are the exact same ones that are in the OCN investment portfolio.

There's virtually no diversification, because the same people run both funds 7 the cash is invested in the same funds of funds believe it or not.

The out-performance of the Hansa fund is solely down to the performance of OCN take it out of the equation & the performance is truly dreadful.

The excuse for not buying back stock is beyond belief.

They don't want to sell any of the OCN shares because if they did so they'd lose control of the OCN.

Unless of course one of them thought outside the box & came up with an easy solution! If we buy-back some OCN shares that would increase our interest in OCN, we could then sell a corresponding % of the Hansa OCN holding to help fund the buy-back !

Hansa is at a 40% discount to its value. OCN is at a near 50% discount to its value.

----------------------------

All the newbies here simply don't get.

The 2 family's own & run Hanseactic Asset Management along with there children / grandchildren & friends.

The Hansa trust & the OCN investment fund are flagships for them trying to raise the amount of funds they have under management to rake in there 1.5% fees & bonuses year after year & allow them to mix in high circles.

Particularly at the expense of the minority OCN shareholders & those holding A shares in Hansa.

That's the reality.

If they were any good at investing or simply invested the cash from 2007 in the index they love to quote annually OCN's investment portfolio would be 140% higher than it is now & that's without taking the extra fees paid into consideration.

LOTM

[cousinit] 16/11/2023 19:46

I'm not too negative. Just trying to be realistic. Suspect that a pretty liquid NAV of £25 wouldn't equate to £25 in my pocket.

Interesting from today's Hansa interims:

"Ocean Wilsons Holdings Limited

As I have mentioned previously, our holding in Ocean Wilsons Holdings Limited ("Ocean Wilsons", "OWHL") consists of two parts: an investment in the Brazilian maritime and port operator Wilson Sons Limited ("Wilson Sons") equating to about 70% of the value of Ocean Wilsons as at 30 September 2023 and an investment portfolio which makes up the balance.

On 12 June 2023, OWHL announced it was undertaking a strategic review involving its investment in Wilson Sons and that it will consider all strategic options. At the time of writing there have been no further announcements on this matter. It is, however, encouraging to see that Wilson Sons continues to meet investor expectations and that the Brazilian Real continues to perform well against the US Dollar. The Board awaits further updates, as I am sure do all shareholders. It should be borne in mind that as stated by Ocean Wilsons, there can be no certainty as to the outcome of its deliberations and decisions.

Please rest assured that the Hansa Investment Company Limited ("HICL") board remains vigilant on this very important issue for all our shareholders and continues to review and update potential strategic options."

Does indicate that they are prepared for the review not being a continuation of BaU.

[livingstone20] 16/11/2023 18:42

Surprising amount of negativity on the Board given a 60 per cent discount due in large part to illiquity would be addressed by sale. Obviously the complex structure has been set to suit the families and avoid a whopping tax bill on the gains. I’m not expert but OCN website says the tax status requires 35 per cent min public holding which suggests a tender offer may be constrained but not impossible? I haven’t done the maths. Even for me the best outcome would vary between isa, sipp and trading account holdings! A special dividend or new dividend policy also possible? I know some doubt they will follow through but for if they do I’d be interested in thoughts. I can’t see many sellers short term with possibility of trading 11 quid for 20 quid of cash pile, even with performance discount doubts.

[pugugly] 16/11/2023 14:48

Not a Dutch Auction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"A Dutch auction is a price discovery process in which the auctioneer starts with the highest asking price and lowers it until it reaches a price level where the bids received will cover the entire offer quantity. Alternatively, a Dutch auction is known as a descending price auction or a uniform price auction."
Real auction with a concealed reserve. Better price.

[cousinit] 16/11/2023 11:44

There is a chance that it could be different this time. History says otherwise, but there seems to be more appreciation of the Wilson Sons business, Lat Am growth story (US distancing from China helps here) and potential buyers with deep pockets.

Some kind of dutch auction tender (PIN, Tetragon) would seem to make sense.

[extrader] 16/11/2023 10:55

If there IS anything going on, it couldn't be the family...

If there ISN'T, is there anything to stop them doing a tender offer or similar, if only to narrow the discount ?

Years back, another family-owned company that I had shares in (property, CLS Holdings), used to do this instead of paying dividends - it allowed the Morstedts to take tax-efficient income out of their holding without diluting their interest...and occasionally increasing it.

[cousinit] 16/11/2023 10:31

Spread seems quite tight today, which suggests someone is happily accumulating

[last of the mohicans] 15/11/2023 22:09

pockstones,

"would be taken badly" by whom ?

We are minority shareholders & there is nothing we can do really other than vote against the directors remuneration & not to re-elect the family members onto the board.

Even that doesn't stop them deciding what happens & we're left either accepting it or voting with our feet & selling out.

Unless of course there is a serious family argument & they vote against each other

LOTM

[pockstones] 15/11/2023 21:35

Suspect the two families want to maximise proceeds from the sale of Wilson &Sons second time in recent years this asset has been touted so this time failure would be taken badly

[xxx] 15/11/2023 13:39

Thanks for the explanation re: dividends LOTM
ps.wasnt that a tv series in the 70's ?

[last of the mohicans] 15/11/2023 09:23

PUGUGLY,

There not trying to buy OCN there buying Wilson & Sons, which is totally different.

If they purchase OCN's 57.75% stake in Wilson & Sons they gain control of it overnight & can then decide if they want to offer the same price to the other Wilson & Son shareholders in the hope of gaining a higher percentage ownership of the company.

That cash would then go into OCN. What OCN would do with it is literally the $64M question & where we (the minority shareholders have a problem) because its the 2 families who'll decide what happens to it.

Whether some of it gets paid out or all of it is up to them.

LOTM

[last of the mohicans] 15/11/2023 08:48

Not a mention of a dividend or the fact Wilson & Sons made a hefty payout.

Comment on investment portfolio couldn't have been smaller if they'd tried.

LOTM

[pugugly] 15/11/2023 08:18

Piedro> True value is what someone would pay for the company. Gut feel, given the illiquidity and family lock suggest at least at 25% discount - probably higher.

[piedro] 15/11/2023 00:20

In my opinion DON'T believe the sell/buy rumours - we have been there before.

The review is just a means of getting a handle on the "true" value of the company.

LOL

[last of the mohicans] 14/11/2023 23:48

galeforce1

Wilson & Sons shares are already at over Real 14 per share (near 15 actually) which is roughly $3 per share & each OCN shares effectively owns 7 Wilson & Sons shares.

So the look through value is already $21 per share.

There will only be a cash distribution if the 2 family's want it, they may prefer the idea of having another $750M+ of cash under there management to rake in $10M+ in fees etc each year.

Never get ahead of yourself when its totally outwith your control.

They've refused to do OCN share buy-backs even although there's been a compelling case to do so for countless years & they have a "poison pill" in place to stop any possible takeover (stake builder) that they don't want.

LOTM

[galeforce1] 14/11/2023 23:26

LotM - thanks for that. THat's big news if the Salomons are thinking of selling the controlling stake in Wilson Sons.

I agree that they have made a terrible job of managing the existing cash portfolio. I understand that a connected firm collects the management fee, which is all very cosy.

If this happens I think the sale will be at a decent premium and we will see a big cash distribution.

[last of the mohicans] 14/11/2023 23:21

galeforce1,

There certainly considering selling it to someone else.

The massive issue for us (ordinary OCN) shareholders is what the 2 controlling families decide to do with the cash if they decide to accept one of the offers.

If they simply retain it inside OCN & milk it for all its worth for there own family interests as happens with the current investment portfolio. We're stuffed.

They've managed to not make any meaningful return on the cash in 15 years from selling the other 40% of Wilson & Sons. If they'd simply put the cash in the index they keep highlighting each year OCN would be worth at least another $300M than it is now ( that's near enough $10 per share of lost value) & that's being conservative unfortunately. Not to mention $50M of fees that wouldn't have been paid to there family & friends at the management company.

LOTM

[last of the mohicans] 14/11/2023 23:08

hxxps://api.mziq.com/mzfilemanager/v2/d/8284de4a-426a-465a-beab-92abeabafc97/ea64d8be-d0b9-4e7d-000c-ce4b4cde8fe1?origin=1

Q3 profit increased a lot in US$ terms not so much in Real terms.

The big worry is the lower rates per TEU, per harbour manoeuvre & per PSV.

All 3 going in the wrong direction all at the same time, indicates a profit squeeze is going to be coming our way, even with good growth in container numbers, towage & PSV days.

Only the OCN portfolio to worry about in the morning & how poorly it did in Q3

Possible bright spot might be a significant interim dividend !!!

LOTM

[galeforce1] 14/11/2023 23:07

So what does this mean? Is Ocean Wilsons Holding Ltd selling down its stake in Wilson Sons?

[eezymunny] 14/11/2023 22:17

Sounds like they're taking it seriously. FWIW...