National Grid Share Discussion Threads

[4spiel] 10/5/2017 11:50

Soon there will be the XD for the return of capital 'special dividend' Nothing special about it at all because what they give with one hand they take back with the other in a share 'consolidation' theft. They always do this - if they want to give a special dividend why if they were straight about do they not just pay the money ? A con - red herring I say.

[redartbmud] 10/5/2017 11:33

For better or worse, for richer or poorer.
Did the deed and sold.
I may get a chance to buy back somewhere down the line.
Time will tell.

[redartbmud] 10/5/2017 10:57

DrB

I am seriously considering selling my holdings outside Sipp/Isa.
The tax rates on dividends are punitive.

[pierre oreilly] 10/5/2017 10:35

uty, I'm not disputing the contracted out bit, ive been telling others about how badly it affects the state pension.my disagreement is with the pension amount as it applies to people who born since apr 51, some who have retired and get the current rate of 159 quid pw. it doesn't solely apply to people working now, some already get it. those born before apr 51 get the old 122rate, those after get 159, subject to not contrated out and 35 years ni.

[utyinv] 10/5/2017 00:36

Septimus:


RE: The only people investing were some older geezers who had nothing better to do with their money, and next to no mortgage, or operational staff with that much money coming in it was an embarrassment.

LOL! many of the old geezers you refer to will be dead by now. I had just finished Uni when I first went into a sharesave. But you may be right about System Ops... LOL :)

[utyinv] 10/5/2017 00:15

Pierre,

The new system only applies to those currently working and paying NI now or those that were not contracted out in their occupational pensions.

So if you have retired but still not at state pension age and if you paid 40+ yrs NI contracted out, unless you pay additional Pension Contributions or go back to work or continue to work paying NI under the new scheme you will only get the basic state pension which is approximately £122/week.

Believe me! Because I was contracted out throughout my career unless I pay additional Contributions under the new scheme before I reach State Pension age or continue to work (where you pay NI contributions at the 12+% rate, because the reduced rate for being contracted out has been abolished) until I reach the State Pension age, I and many others will not get the £155 figure. It has been in the media quite extensively. The £155 is only for those that paid NI and the serps extra, all those who were contracted out will have their pensions reduced for the period they were contracted out.

If part of your career was contracted out you will receive more than the basic full state pension but less than the new full state pension unless you pay additional contributions to cover the period you were contracted out. If you were not in a Final Salary Pension scheme which means you were not contracted out then you will get the full amount if you contribute 35 yrs. The website does not explain it very well.

Its because many Final Salary based pensions are closed to new employees and many have closed to existing employees too. The website doesn't explain things well for people who were contracted out because most pensions like that are not relevant to the young because most have been closed. Just like inflation is always quoting CPI. The BBC etc quote CPI, Gov quote CPI and so on but Final Salary pensions are based on RPI. The Government tried to abolish RPI (RPI is always higher than CPI because it included housing costs and doesn't help the Gov propaganda machine ) but lost when it was taken to the Supreme Court!

If you have been or are in a final salary pension scheme and are not at State Pension age, ask the Gov Pensions Dept for a forecast of your expected state pension. If you have been contracted out you may be disappointed when you get your forecast.

[dr biotech] 09/5/2017 22:46

hxxps://www.oldmutualwealth.co.uk/Adviser/literature-and-support/knowledge-direct/individual-taxation/capital-gains-tax/30-day-bed-and-breakfast-rules-and-cgt/

If you do have a large holding you will of course face a capital hit which you may be able to offset against other gains. Doesn't really affect me, but I think paying down debt may have been a better use for the money

[septimus quaid] 09/5/2017 21:01

They were a "little suspicious" because, up my neck of the woods anyway, you weren't given the first clue of how you were ever going to make any money.

I think the guy giving the share-save presentation was some Guildford shill who seemed intent on talking down the original scheme.

The interest rate applied to the sharesave was pitiful against the prevailing sky-high interest rates at the time.

The only people investing were some older geezers who had nothing better to do with their money, and next to no mortgage, or operational staff with that much money coming in it was an embarrassment.

[pierre oreilly] 09/5/2017 20:58

2. What you'll get

The full new State Pension is £159.55 per week.

The actual amount you get depends on your National Insurance record.


You’ll be able to claim the new State Pension if you’re:

a man born on or after 6 April 1951
a woman born on or after 6 April 1953

That's from gov.uk. Note some people born after apr 51 are now at pension age!

The 122 quid or whatever is under the old system.

[utyinv] 09/5/2017 19:32

M100,

You are right about State Pension. Most people who worked in the Industry and for the State (Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Civil Servants..... etc) were all contracted out and as such, unless they now contribute either voluntary additional NI contributions or have gone back to work (if not already receiving State Pension yet)they will get approx £122/week. Many of these people have contributed not 35 years but 40+ years and still get a lower pension.

You are also absolutely right in saying there are a lot of Pensioners who do not, or have not had the opportunities to save and invest in shares and those of us who have, should be grateful. Sharesaves only came onto the scene in the late 70's / early 80's and because they were relatively new not many took up the offers. I recall the first sharesave with Grid in 1990 (for those wondering....although the stock was floated in 1995 there was a special arrangement for an employee sharesave when the industry was privatised) and even the financially astute were a little suspicious of the new saving schemes.

[pierre oreilly] 09/5/2017 19:17

Hi uty, i have no idea about the 30 day rule, i only found out about it today!

Apart from 2000/2001, cgt is alien to me, thank goodness. I'll leave you to read the hmrc manuals!

I really dislike tax systems, do one thing you pay a lot of tax, do another you pay nothing. All a lot of effort for no benefit to society, and a lot of money wasted going to advisers (at sometimes 3k per day) for really no benefit, nothing produced, nothing increasing the wellbeing of the population. Futile really.

[m100] 09/5/2017 18:44

It's still £122.30 basic pension for now, for current recipients.



"After sensible inputs from numerous contributors here we have m100 rabbiting on about the state pension and the fact that I should feel "very lucky".
NOT very lucky at all - I have saved and invested (ie taken risks) for decades and "sheltered" to the max.
Thanks go to all the other contributors, however I detect the whiff of bitterness in the air so this is me signing off"

There is no bitterness "misa.." just a statement of facts as you seem somewhat blind to the numerous options you've had for days/weeks/months/years/decades.

Exposure to tax liability on investments is in the main evidence of wealth above the very generous tax free investment limits, or a persistent failure to shelter those investments using PEPs or ISAs that have existed for decades despite substantial promotion of such sheltering in the mainstream and financial press and zero additional risk and near zero additional cost above the original investment.

Some may suddenly fall into tax exposure with acquired wealth from others, but that can be dumped into a zero interest account and trickled into investments over long periods or immediately invested in a main residence with no tax liability.

But to be a so called long term investor 'for decades' and then to throw a wobbly from what is a tiny tax liability from a simple restructuring like this is pretty pathetic, especially given the very long notice of such an event and repeated notice of such an event over the past few months.

Unlike the previous capital restructuring a decade ago from 10p to 11p and whatever there was never any indication months ago from the board that B shares would be issued. That information was all the trigger one needed, from a zero start, to potentially gain two tax years worth of ISA's possibly doubled, giving rise to £70240 across 2016/17 and 2017/18, that's nearly 1/4 of your holdings immediately sheltered in a matter of days even as late as around the start of April this year.

Then you have capital gains limits, going more liquid in 2016/17 and 2017/18 is £22,400 GAIN possibly times two. Without a start point its difficult to judge, but in the worst case (and as a non employee) it's circa 230p from float ignoring previous restructuring, so somewhere around £8, so around 5600 shares in a dual holding before any liability. Acquired at higher levels the disposals without CGT liability drop substantially to zero and beyond as If bought in the past year they could be minus £1/share :)

Half your holdings removed from any tax liability whatsoever in a matter of days. Maybe 100% removed from any liability with just stamp duty and the spread to take care of when reinvested post restructuring.

Maybe your wealth is such that no amount of UK based sheltering would afford you a tax free regime and offshoring is the only viable option.

[utyinv] 09/5/2017 17:36

Hi Pierre,

Not sure about the 30 day rule in this case.

Is it allowed?? i.e.: are you buying the same shares back??????

A clause within HMRC CGT Manual :- a disposal of shares followed by a company reorganisation (such as a rights issue or bonus issue) to which TCGA92/S127 applies, see CG51700+, with the result that the additional shares are not treated as acquired within the 30 days following the disposal

[pierre oreilly] 09/5/2017 16:51

It's £155pw these days, if you've paid 35 years ni, which i haven't. And if you haven't been contracted out. I think not many actually get the maximum.

uty, why would he have to pay tax if he sold cd and bought back the next day xd? No divi, no cgt liability (from what dr. bio said, a 30 day rule or something)? Of course a cgt liability would be building up, but no cgt due to those transactions)?


I'm so pleased i decided not to do a private pension all those years ago, and put it all into isa/pep/tessas. i didn't get tax relief at the time (unlike those who put it in pensions, which i think was everyone else!), but i'm sure getting big tax benefits now. And a lack of hassle!

[misanthropeterence] 09/5/2017 16:50

After sensible inputs from numerous contributors here we have m100 rabbiting on about the state pension and the fact that I should feel "very lucky".
NOT very lucky at all - I have saved and invested (ie taken risks) for decades and "sheltered" to the max.
Thanks go to all the other contributors, however I detect the whiff of bitterness in the air so this is me signing off.

[m100] 09/5/2017 16:28

"To put things into perspective, I have a holding in excess of 26,000 shares but not all are ISA'd yet, and whilst your sell/buy back suggestion is valid it still leaves me with a massive disgruntlement.
Hacked off doesn't even come close I'm afraid"

The means to shelter investments and legitimately reduce tax exposure have been around for a very, very long time, those exemptions are quite wide ranging, across multiple 'investment' areas, are very generous and are often index linked. If you fall outside them the liability is not by any reasonable measure unfair.

The basic state pension is currently £122.30 per week, so think yourself VERY lucky you have the investments to avoid those levels of poverty.

[utyinv] 09/5/2017 15:44

Misan,

As pierre says you can mitigate you tax liability. Unfortunately this all depends what your nominal rate of tax is. If married what your Partner's nominal tax is. How much you have already used of your CGT this year, how much your Spouse has used this year.

I have already posted in Dec what the current rules are regarding tax liabilities from income for 2017/18 (whether from shares or other investments not held in tax exempt vehicles). However, I am sure you know them well.

With in excess of 26k shares not held in isa's then yes there would be some tax to pay whichever way you decide to go but how much is very relevant on what you decide to do.

However,

With 26k shares outside an ISA you were always going to pay tax on income if you intended on keeping them. i.e. Say divi for year is 43.8p (conservative figure) 26,000 X 43.8p = £11,388. For lower nominal tax (those on 20%) you pay 7.5% in tax for any amount above £5000(tax free annual allowance from investments not held in a tax shelter). For higher nominal tax payers (40%) its 32.5% above the £5000 annual allowance and for highest rate of tax (45%) its 38.1% above the £5000 annual allowance.

So if 20% tax payer your bill on NG Divi (normal) would be £475; if 40% tax liability £2076 and top tax rate 45% tax liable is £2433.

Special Divi 84.375 = £21, 937 then 20% = £1270; 40%= £5,504 and 45%= £6,452 tax liability. But together with Transferring shares to Spouse (you can transfer how many you like), using both your and your wife's CGT the tax liability won't be that much different to what you would expect to pay.

[dogdays] 09/5/2017 15:21

UtyINV
Thank you. Lets all hope it works out as you say. My NG.shares are in an ISA and I use them for retirement income, also to protect against inflation. After the disastrous performance of my endowment mortgage and my private pension I now alas have a bit of a dubious view of of the financial sector in general.I also find in retirement I have now more time to spend my money,something you cannot do so easily when working.

[bountyhunter] 09/5/2017 13:01

maybe could you transfer shares to a pension plan as a shelter from the tax?
if not may be worth considering holding some in a pension plan for the future if possible;
given the size of your holding I fully understand your annoyance

[misanthropeterence] 09/5/2017 12:40

Hello again Pierre,
Yes, I follow/understand all comments.
To put things into perspective, I have a holding in excess of 26,000 shares but not all are ISA'd yet, and whilst your sell/buy back suggestion is valid it still leaves me with a massive disgruntlement.
Hacked off doesn't even come close I'm afraid

[pierre oreilly] 09/5/2017 11:50

misan, You'd be very unlucky if you have to pay cgt if you sell cd and buy back 11/12 xd. Have you used up all your cgt allowance this year?

Are you sure you followed what DR BIotech said? He's not saying income tax is payable instead of cgt under those circumstances (i.e selling cd, buying back xd within 30 days or whatever), just that cgt isn't.

Afaiia, it's totally your choice whether you subject yourself to income tax by taking the divi (i.e. holding until xd).

[misanthropeterence] 09/5/2017 11:50

Ianood - trust me, with a comparatively large holding, ie thousands of shares, you are stuffed regardless of all the different plays suggested.
I'm just going to bite the bullet and get shafted by HMRC but still maintain the view that the "special dividend" is without doubt a "return of capital" as shareholders have lost part of the business they invested in.
Tellingly, the phrase "return of capital" was actually used by the Company Secretary in his response to my initial enquiry.
BAD,BAD deal for individual investors here in the UK - in fact I would suggest that the cash could have been better used by the Company rather than returning it to shareholders along with a barmy consolidation.
AARRGH!

[ianood] 09/5/2017 11:09

You could always do a B&B crossing husband to wife, or vice versa, providing your only trade one person's holding

[misanthropeterence] 09/5/2017 11:04

Forgot to mention dear readers, individual shareholders in the US will have their dividend treated as Capital, not income like us here in the UK.
Not a level playing field evidently.

[bountyhunter] 09/5/2017 10:30

That explains why there is no 'B' shares alternative, not an oversight then given the change in legislation which I was unaware of.