Iofina Share Discussion Threads

[verymaryhinge] 08/7/2013 17:24

Worrap - Holding the price up or down artificially is deemed market manipulation.
Being SETS MM means that market makers (MM)are required to maintain a 2 way market in the stock. If they get hit (they are sold stock) or lifted (they are asked to sell stock) they have to refresh theoir price within a specific period of time. That could be a higher / lower / same price.
The SETS bit means that non market makers can also interact with the order book - these are the offers or bids on Level II that have no 4 letter 'name' against them.. Your broker/ FSB / CFD provider will place your limit instruction on the order book. So you have mm's and brokers.. supposedly the most efficient market (can discuss this at a different juncture as it actually adds to volatility due to unscrupulous brokers)

So there is a persistant seller at (say) 175 and you, Worrups, think it should be higher, but the only reason it's not going up is because there is a seller acting to keep it down. Let's assume that someone is indeed 'keeping it down' as you suggest - they can only do that by selling stock to stop it going to the next higher level. So, someone who knows there is a big buyer keeps selling stock at a price they know is too low when the 'big buy order' is completed ? Who in their right mind is going to sell stock when they either own it and KNOW (per your assumption) it's going up, or alternatively don't own it and know they'll have to buy it back at a higher level when the 'big buy order' is completed ?

If you think the price is too low - BUY more shares. The price is where it is because there are buyers and sellers basically in equilibrium. When there is not equilibrium is when the share price moves in one direction or the other.
This is a very simple explanation of the market movements, but is essentially all you need to know.

Now - in pure MM stocks I will agree that the 'market' can potentially hold a price, but only because they are only obliged to deal (commit their own capital) in a certain size.. and there are market niceties / conventions that are (generally) adhered to by the broker community.. but that's a different story (based on if those nicities were not followed no-one would ever make a price in the stock in question - too illiquid and to likely to get their ar*es handed to them)

Now if you took offence, I apologised - but honestly it wasn't the most offensive post was it ? p'raps you should grow some.

vmh

[the fat controller] 08/7/2013 16:54

Ansana,
yes, 5 million should do it!
TFC

[ansana] 08/7/2013 16:48

TFC I know, as soon as I posted i saw it had fallen while i was typing, sorry, how about I buy some tomorrow to make up for it?

[the fat controller] 08/7/2013 16:36

Ansana,
You've just put the kiss of death on the sp! Finished level, down from when you posted!
TFC

[monty panesar] 08/7/2013 16:35

It is worth taking a look at Angle(AGL) It looks as if they have a block buster product that is far superior to the Johnson and Johnson product Cellsearch.
The Parsonix system collects Circulating Tumor Cells and is an early detection product. The product is already in research institutions but should have EU Approval before end of year. Broker Cenkos have £2 pt verses current price 60p.

[ansana] 08/7/2013 16:23

Hi Engelo, apologies for the delay the answers are
Yes,
agreed and I did use those words heaven and hell, different styles get different responses. They probably felt sorry for me. I know I felt sorry for myself LOL. I won't mention who sent it to me, it could have been Sam, JP or CF or then again none of them. Good to see the share price on the up.

[worraps] 08/7/2013 16:15

VMH

Well, you may not have intended to cause offence, but by describing my genuine post as tripe, and to say I must be from cloud cuckoo land, IS offensive I'm afraid.

I at no time mentioned the words "market manipulation". I was merely putting forward the idea, taking the apparent suggestion from Superg's earlier post, that an Institution or two are keenly wanting to add, or get hold of a holding, at the present time. Not being as experienced as you, I had wondered if, for instance, they wanted say 5 million shares, at 184p, this kind of quantity would have to be gradually accumulated over a period of time. No large purchase of this quantity could possibly be bought in one tranche, as (1), there would be insufficient supply, and (2), it would push the price up significantly, in which case, 184p would soon be out of reach.

Edit:- see superg1's post 4868, for example.

I realise my simplistic theorisation must make you laugh, but really, there was no need to be so scathing of an idea, which to a comparative novice, actually made some sense.

Please feel free to explain why the above scenario could not possibly take place. Even the eminent posters here have been impyling such over the last few weeks or so. Particularly after the recent dramatic drop, when superg was happy to believe that certain IIs were jumping at the chance of such a mouth watering shareprice.

[neddo] 08/7/2013 15:44

fair enough mary, you are very knowledgable, ready many of your posts

[verymaryhinge] 08/7/2013 15:23

wasn't wishing offence, truely.. but some assumptions are made by some PI's that can be really misleading to less experienced investors.

Why don't you try and explain to me how someone could hold back an share price in a SETS/MM market ? You might learn something from the discourse.


Nedo - not an ego at all. Just something I know about and feel that comments about "market manipulation" are all to easily bandied about.

[neddo] 08/7/2013 13:34

worraps
right on mate, a few rather large egos , think they have the right to chastise anything they do not agree with. have your say you are entitled to any opinion, you want ?

[engelo] 08/7/2013 13:15

Thanks Lib. Interesting. These large micro margin trades evidently make the hedgies a good living: presumably in a zero sum game the rest of us are losing it in some way :-(

[worraps] 08/7/2013 13:01

So, VMH and freshvoice think I am insane, and in cloud cuckoo land. I think that's a bit over the top for just expressing and querying a theory about the shareprice today. Posters come here all the time with one theory or another. But to call any theory that isn't yours....insane? Coming from cloud cuckoo land? May I suggest that your egos are a little inflated? Apart from which you are just plain rude!!

[the librarian] 08/7/2013 12:36

An interesting listen regarding share trading on BBC radio 4 'A dark magic'..... a lot about algorithms, high frequency trading (at the speed of light!)and may enlighten some.

[superg1] 08/7/2013 12:22

VMH

It's the PI's that chase the price up, but it has had a certain feel since the fall and retrace that there is not a decent supply at these prices.

I'm sure if it did pull back to levels funds want, then PI's will nick them too.

However as each week passes we close in on potential production upgrades for io2 and the build process ticks on for io3.

[freshvoice] 08/7/2013 12:12

VMH
a note of sanity!

[verymaryhinge] 08/7/2013 12:09

there is nothing holding it back .. not wishing offense (worraps) I do wish people wouldn't post such tripe. It's not going higher at this moment because a) no one is buying the stock on the offer, or b) people are buying but there is a seller reloading. Given there are 150k traded I'd suggest a bit of both. It has found an equilibrium - it'll go up or down if it's no longer in equilibrium. either more/more aggressive buyers or more/more agressive sellers.
There may well be a decent buying order in the background (indeed I'm aware there is/was..) but it's almost certainly at a lower level at the moment (170/180 odd perhaps ??).. OR they would be going ever higher.

I won't deny the MM's take the mkt up or down, testing it to find the right level or where there is biz one way or the other, and triggering stops, but the conspiracy theorists among you really do live in CCL.

[worraps] 08/7/2013 11:59

.....maybe that's why the shareprice appears to be being 'held back' today. Someone is accumulating their rather large holding on the quiet, at around 184p or so? Certainly something holding it back it would seem. Let's hope they've got their fill soon, and the expected RNS arrives just as they've finished, which maybe part of the plan when you think about it. Not much point in piling in AFTER the RNS, is there?

[engelo] 08/7/2013 11:17

SG: thanks! 5% won't be easy to get without causing a small adjustment to the share price :-)

[engelo] 08/7/2013 11:15

Back again to ansana's email exchange:

"we are glad to see Chris bought and we are sure he will purchase more"

That's a pretty unusual thing to say and think it gives a big clue to the author of the email: think I recognise the style :-)

[superg1] 08/7/2013 10:54

Engelo

I have no doubt that at least a couple of other II's are waiting, I hear some new II's are already buying.

Some I hear want 5% plus so we'll just have to wait and see if that materialises.

It's probably fund interest that has caused the bounce back and little supply

[neddo] 08/7/2013 10:54

what kind of spread is 6p?

[engelo] 08/7/2013 08:58

SG: Thanks for all your analysis of predator contenders (others still up your sleeve, I think). Feel increasingly convinced that any takeover move is going to be contested.

If it's going to come (and v much hope not), would like them to hold off just a little bit longer...

Believe there is a parallel between IIs still waiting for confirmation of figures from I02/3 etc before investing and predators waiting for the same thing to value the target.

[superg1] 08/7/2013 08:33

up

Yes but the retail investors have comms with those they think are looking at IOF.

We haven't mentioned the full prime suspects yet.

On can't ignore the fact that historically SQM go after any promising iodine producer.

Lib

Lithium iodine batteries have been around for a while ( E.G. pacemakers). However in the last few years they have progressed to those carrying twice the power of the originals, and with far less safety issues.

[captain_kurt] 08/7/2013 08:28

Another start with little shares on the offer.
One MM at 187p the rest are over 190.25p+ currently