Home Reit Share Discussion Threads

[1tx] 28/11/2023 17:25

Eden Safe seems to have connections witn other CIC's who leased Home properties.Lotus & Sanctuary in particular.

[spectoacc] 28/11/2023 07:08

"Eden Safe has not paid rent to the Company since October 2022".

Sums it up. Also, yet more PRS/AST's, giving the lie to "housing the homeless".

And where has the rent gone? AEW don't necessarily seem to be in a hurry to find out.

[spectoacc] 13/11/2023 08:21

Indeed. You'd hope because they don't want to prejudice recovery, but you'd fear it's because they're not going after them.

Yet you can take any individual property at any of the auctions, and see exactly what's gone on, and it's exactly what Viceroy said. HOME raises a stack of cash. Someone (usually the one we know about) scours the market/auctions and buys up all the HMO's they can lay their hands on, bought at generally market value.

Those are rapidly flipped on once or more to other SPVs, at inflated/fake prices.

Then sold on to HOME - within weeks - at double purchase price, now with "leases" in place. Some of that money paid by HOME goes to those lessees, some of which as far as I can tell were little more than nameplates.

The Board seemingly remain ignorant of what's going on even when they're explicitly told. Where's the fiduciary duty?

Knight Frank merrily issue their valuations - where's their perusal of Land Reg data?

Rent comes in - for a year, if HOME are luckly - but it's round-tripping shareholders cash. How much were the CIC stooges paid, where did the property income go?

Alvarium continue to "manage", and keep raising tens and hundreds of millions. They're still in place even once it's obvious what's gone on. Two prominent actors got out early.

When the alleged fraud's exposed, the Board issue IMO misleading statements denying it, Alvarium try to hive off the advisor, the main SPV crooks exit stage left, and the CICs start to go down like a house of cards. Rent collection hit 3%!

Knight Frank quietly walk away, and some insts (take a bow, M&G) continue buying the shares.

I'm re-hashing what we all know, but it's still jaw-dropping. Can see an argument for the early money being gone, but the con was rolled on for so long, with many more hundreds of millions raised, that it's hard not to see at least some sort of recovery angle.

Shareholders' best hope?

[flyer61] 12/11/2023 17:55

Spec enjoy your holiday. I must admit I was going to post after Wallywoos first post but thought better of it. WC104 has been very patient and polite with his responses.

You couldn't make it up that someone thinks this has a positive future.....

[wallywoo] 11/11/2023 18:53

OK perhaps I gave you a hard time.


I also think it depends when you invested here. I invested when it was a real mess at 37.4p (icl divi). If you invested at 100p+, I can understand a much greater degree of anger.


Still believe this situation will get sorted to my satisfaction. Though, it still has a good degree of uncertainty.


Sometimes buying when there is blood in the streets works really well, sometimes it doesn't. We shall have to wait, perhaps another 6 months (my guess when this will be relisted) to find out!!!

[williamcooper104] 11/11/2023 10:05

Please please tell me how the loans weren't in default How would the interest cover ratio have been met with sub 10 percent rent collection How would the LTV have been meet when assets are being sold at such massive discounts Of course covenants were broken; Lloyds will have temporarily waived these on the basis that the Board/manager are doing at less cost what an administrator would do Lloyds have always been very strict on loan docs/covenants - there's zero chance this is a cov light loan - as in zero

[wallywoo] 11/11/2023 07:43

I am confused. If the loans were in default, HOME would have a legal responsibility to inform shareholders. I believe you are trying to generate pi anger at this company. Much more likely is that a plan has been set out to reduce the loan amount to an agreed level and to carry on with a long term debt. Home have plenty of cash to pay interest in the meantime.


Also, you seem obsessed with legal action here. It is my firm belief that you are an "ambulance chaser" for this legal firm.


Please enlighten us on this BB. If zero (none) of the funds and institutions have joined your legal action (who own around 80% of Home shares), why should any private investors??


It is my firm belief that you are just trying to drum up investor anger here, so that your law firm will prosper. If 80% of professional investors think that is unlikely to maximise their investment here. Why should the rest of us??? I still believe Home will relist with 1500 to 2000 4/5 bedroom houses in rent with a lower debt (to a mix of homeless and other tenants). To me that looks the best way to stabilise this company and to achieve around 50p share target. We all know that there's huge demand for rental accommodation in the UK, which will only increase.

Legal action will just make lawyers rich and I believe shareholders would get very little. It would just line the pockets of lots of paper pushers!!

Progress is being made with both rental income and housing sales. We need to wait for that process to complete.

[williamcooper104] 09/11/2023 16:42

The loans clearly been in default and that's been waived by Lloyds so long as HOME continues to de-lever That they haven't (or appear not to) have overly rinsed HOME with covenant waiver fees/reset margins is likely that Lloyds don't want the reputational hit Likely they just want their loan repaid at par as soon as possible - that will of course be its own windfall for them as they will be able to re-lend at 2-3x the returns

[williamcooper104] 09/11/2023 11:16

Yep and mostly requiring significant capex With the money that was meant to be used for that capex having been used for rent So dodgy Do hope some of the working capital is being used to fund a litigation reserve

[hohum1] 09/11/2023 07:18

More property sales announced at 35% of purchase price. Someone should go to jail for this

[williamcooper104] 19/10/2023 18:33

Yep - I sat through a pitch for that - it was - you'll probably lose all your money and need to want to do this for partially philanthropic reasons plus if it does work you will make billions so no need to put anything other than a small amount of money Woodford went and did 10 percent (from memory) of his GAV - totally utterly crackers - 20-30bps is all they were looking and all he should have put in

[cruelladeville] 19/10/2023 18:00

Don't forget, the ridiculous cold fusion experiment Woodford spaffed money into. That finally convinced me he had lost the plot entirely. And there he is happy as Larry with his show jumping hobby whilst the innocent punters invested in good faith and lost a lot of money.There's big parallels with HOME, the punters will be left with pence in the pound, if anything. And those responsible will enjoy time in the sun completely care free.It stinks.

[spectoacc] 19/10/2023 11:00

I'm still 20p - thanks only to the LTV being low as the fraud was exposed not long after a capital raise - but if each auction sees lower % of cost realised, then zero definitely a possibility. Their costs needs keeping an eye on too, and the performance of the lower-rented Mears stuff.

Re Woodford - some of his was pretty heinous, like tying WPCT into funding Rutherford Health even long after he'd gone (Rutherford now bust), and listing unlisteds on the Guernsey exchange to beat the letter of the law, via connected parties at (from memory) Stobart. And ending up owning over 50% of microchipped pallets co (now bust).

Woody wins on scale - billions - HOME wins on (alleged) outright fraud.


@Flyer61 - true, but those who exited presumably did so at around MV, and eg 2021 was sub-1% interest rates, so they'd need some persuading to buy back their no-longer-maintained property with rates at 5.25%. The bulk of the money has gone to the SPV flippers on to HOME - recall £80m being quoted for the Venice bloke.

[cc2014] 19/10/2023 09:09

What is clear is that whatever went on here is significantly worse than Woodford who whilst destroying shareholder value did so by incompetence.

I am wondering whether in the end ordinary shareholders are going to see a complete wipeout or perhaps as little as 5p in the £

[flyer61] 19/10/2023 08:48

There must be some people who were able to exit this stuff who are feeling very pleased with themselves. They don't seem to be in a hurry to buy them back.

I would like to say the CICs were clearly fraudulent vehicles but due to libel laws I won't.

[spectoacc] 19/10/2023 08:15

I'd love to know for sure what it was in the books at HOME for - bearing in mind that's also a different price to what they paid.

It only had 30% occupancy even in Oct 2021 - Beeston is not the best.
Presumably KF valued it on the basis it was fully let thanks to the lease signed by the CIC, but it was never income-producing in any meaningful sense.

Were most of these CIC's in existence only on paper?

There's so much evidence of fraud, perhaps best shown by the previous set of auction sales achieving 32% of cost, and the current rent collection being 3% (as of September).

Breathtaking really, and skewed/skewing HMO property markets up & down the country.

[flyer61] 19/10/2023 08:08

and Spec who is going to put there hand in their pocket to bring it up to scratch. Land value only less demolition costs.

Quite unbelievable, where are the journos on this one.

[spectoacc] 19/10/2023 07:46

So - this one, the one with the boarded windows but open top floor velux:



Was bought by the flipper for £700k in August 2022.

Also in August 2022, it was sold on to HOME for £1,939,310


15 Aug 2022 £1,939,310
15 Aug 2022 £700,000


It could be one of those bulk transactions where all the profit is weighted on to a single house. But in pure data terms a property with 10 letting bedrooms has been left to rot, with no income, and is now on at "£170k+".

Fair to say it won't even reach the £700k.

Except that too is a fake price - was on the market in October 2021 for £490k:




Income when fully done c.£55k pa.

[williamcooper104] 18/10/2023 12:36

My all time favourite special assumption HBOS lent to the centre point in 2007 with a valuation that was c2x the then market value of the asset Sue the valuer Nope Valuer said it was on the special assumption that Crossrial had been delivered The bank didn't bother reading the assumptions and lent a then conservative 75 percent LTV against effectively it's future value in 15 years time

[williamcooper104] 18/10/2023 12:34

With KF it'll be Assumptions to the valuation - eg they will have said that their valuation is based on no inspections and thus if you want to rely on it that's your problem (why the Board were happy with this - probably didn't read the valuation of course - the assumptions/special assumptions is the first thing I read) Plus "it all in the yield" - a favourite valuer term - which means that if the rest of the market was bonkers then that's captured in the yield - eg so long as there were plenty of fraudsters frauding then the true market value was fraudy

[spectoacc] 18/10/2023 10:39

Pretty sure the Sold prices I've quoted above are what the Venice crook paid, not what HOME paid (around double that).

So eg the £160k Guide one, that I reckon will go for about £250k, was bought for £700k but could have gone to HOME for as much as £1.4m. That shows the sheer scale of the fraud.

Also shows how much their £900m/£450m skewed local markets in the 18 months or so they were buyers.

What were Knight Frank thinking?