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[cruelladeville] 19/10/2023 17:00

Don't forget, the ridiculous cold fusion experiment Woodford spaffed money into. That finally convinced me he had lost the plot entirely. And there he is happy as Larry with his show jumping hobby whilst the innocent punters invested in good faith and lost a lot of money.There's big parallels with HOME, the punters will be left with pence in the pound, if anything. And those responsible will enjoy time in the sun completely care free.It stinks.

[spectoacc] 19/10/2023 10:00

I'm still 20p - thanks only to the LTV being low as the fraud was exposed not long after a capital raise - but if each auction sees lower % of cost realised, then zero definitely a possibility. Their costs needs keeping an eye on too, and the performance of the lower-rented Mears stuff.

Re Woodford - some of his was pretty heinous, like tying WPCT into funding Rutherford Health even long after he'd gone (Rutherford now bust), and listing unlisteds on the Guernsey exchange to beat the letter of the law, via connected parties at (from memory) Stobart. And ending up owning over 50% of microchipped pallets co (now bust).

Woody wins on scale - billions - HOME wins on (alleged) outright fraud.


@Flyer61 - true, but those who exited presumably did so at around MV, and eg 2021 was sub-1% interest rates, so they'd need some persuading to buy back their no-longer-maintained property with rates at 5.25%. The bulk of the money has gone to the SPV flippers on to HOME - recall £80m being quoted for the Venice bloke.

[cc2014] 19/10/2023 08:09

What is clear is that whatever went on here is significantly worse than Woodford who whilst destroying shareholder value did so by incompetence.

I am wondering whether in the end ordinary shareholders are going to see a complete wipeout or perhaps as little as 5p in the £

[flyer61] 19/10/2023 07:48

There must be some people who were able to exit this stuff who are feeling very pleased with themselves. They don't seem to be in a hurry to buy them back.

I would like to say the CICs were clearly fraudulent vehicles but due to libel laws I won't.

[spectoacc] 19/10/2023 07:15

I'd love to know for sure what it was in the books at HOME for - bearing in mind that's also a different price to what they paid.

It only had 30% occupancy even in Oct 2021 - Beeston is not the best.
Presumably KF valued it on the basis it was fully let thanks to the lease signed by the CIC, but it was never income-producing in any meaningful sense.

Were most of these CIC's in existence only on paper?

There's so much evidence of fraud, perhaps best shown by the previous set of auction sales achieving 32% of cost, and the current rent collection being 3% (as of September).

Breathtaking really, and skewed/skewing HMO property markets up & down the country.

[flyer61] 19/10/2023 07:08

and Spec who is going to put there hand in their pocket to bring it up to scratch. Land value only less demolition costs.

Quite unbelievable, where are the journos on this one.

[spectoacc] 19/10/2023 06:46

So - this one, the one with the boarded windows but open top floor velux:



Was bought by the flipper for £700k in August 2022.

Also in August 2022, it was sold on to HOME for £1,939,310


15 Aug 2022 £1,939,310
15 Aug 2022 £700,000


It could be one of those bulk transactions where all the profit is weighted on to a single house. But in pure data terms a property with 10 letting bedrooms has been left to rot, with no income, and is now on at "£170k+".

Fair to say it won't even reach the £700k.

Except that too is a fake price - was on the market in October 2021 for £490k:




Income when fully done c.£55k pa.

[williamcooper104] 18/10/2023 11:36

My all time favourite special assumption HBOS lent to the centre point in 2007 with a valuation that was c2x the then market value of the asset Sue the valuer Nope Valuer said it was on the special assumption that Crossrial had been delivered The bank didn't bother reading the assumptions and lent a then conservative 75 percent LTV against effectively it's future value in 15 years time

[williamcooper104] 18/10/2023 11:34

With KF it'll be Assumptions to the valuation - eg they will have said that their valuation is based on no inspections and thus if you want to rely on it that's your problem (why the Board were happy with this - probably didn't read the valuation of course - the assumptions/special assumptions is the first thing I read) Plus "it all in the yield" - a favourite valuer term - which means that if the rest of the market was bonkers then that's captured in the yield - eg so long as there were plenty of fraudsters frauding then the true market value was fraudy

[spectoacc] 18/10/2023 09:39

Pretty sure the Sold prices I've quoted above are what the Venice crook paid, not what HOME paid (around double that).

So eg the £160k Guide one, that I reckon will go for about £250k, was bought for £700k but could have gone to HOME for as much as £1.4m. That shows the sheer scale of the fraud.

Also shows how much their £900m/£450m skewed local markets in the 18 months or so they were buyers.

What were Knight Frank thinking?

[spectoacc] 17/10/2023 11:18

Lol @Wc104.

@Flyer61 - interesting to see them working their way down the country, and presumably having to deal with sitting tenants before being able to get things onto the market.

The Peterlee ones interest me - that Knight Frank (who seem to have disappeared scott-free) said were worth c.£83k each, and I thought £15k if wrecked. Suspect they'll do about £30k.

HOME is scandalous - yet eg M&G were still adding even after the allegations surfaced, and the supine, ignorant, pliable Board were still putting out RNS's denying things that were demonstrably true (eg that some of the properties were up for rent under AST's, or that EPC's hadn't been upgraded due to no CapEx, or that HOME shareholders were paying double market price).

[flyer61] 17/10/2023 09:53

And Scarborough features heavily again.

Where is the police investigation....

[williamcooper104] 17/10/2023 09:33

Obviously worried that next government going to bring back the window tax

[spectoacc] 17/10/2023 07:34

HOME claim the junk went out two auctions ago. Hmm.

Worrying how many are subject to "unknown" tenancies. Good luck buying one of those.

[spectoacc] 17/10/2023 07:20

Several photos of front and side, why none of the back? Someone squatting the top floor my guess.

Over 500 lots in this auction (not counted how many are HOME's). There's going to be saturation in a few auctions' time, when us punters have spent our cash but haven't had the chance to pull it back out again.

Some of the HOME Peterlee ones now appearing.

[cc2014] 17/10/2023 06:44

Since it's boarded up and one of the dormer windows is open quite a bit rain coming in might be a significant problem

[spectoacc] 17/10/2023 06:39

H/t @Flyer61, Allsops catalogue is out.

This one caught the eye:




Sold for £175k in 2004, HOME paid £700k for it in August 2022 - I think.

Will maybe fetch £250k, tho a lot will depend on how wrecked it is internally. Very, would be my guess.

Not hard to see why only 7% of rent is being collected..

[gbcol] 12/10/2023 12:13

Sorry I was being facetious. Just tell them you are a shareholder and register anyway. They won’t be able to verify it, mine are held in nominee account and I doubt they will request letters of representation or the like.

[cc2014] 12/10/2023 12:09

Eventually it will be relisted. How can I as a non-shareholder make an informed decision about a fair price if I don't have the information? And by the same argument if I'm not going to buy as I don't have the information the price HOME will come back at when it relists will be lower than it might be. Seems counter-productive to me.

[cc2014] 12/10/2023 11:10

Home REIT plc announces that AEW UK Investment Management LLP ("AEW"), the Investment Manager of the Company, will provide a presentation to shareholders via a live webcast on 19 October at 11.00am BST.

The presentation, which is only open to shareholders of the Company, will provide an introduction to AEW following their appointment as investment manager, together with detail on the activities that AEW is undertaking to stabilise the Company's property portfolio and financial position. There will also be an opportunity for shareholders to ask questions.


The presentation is "only open to shareholders"... ffs

[spectoacc] 03/10/2023 09:04

Haven't seen the Peterlee junk come up as yet, but it'll definitely be cheap if/when it does ;)

[epistrophy] 03/10/2023 08:59

Thanks. I've got family up North, tempted to pick up something cheap in Peterlee!

[spectoacc] 03/10/2023 08:57

@Flyer61 may know better, but the only ones I've seen have been in the Allsop Residential auctions - last one and the one before.

There's more coming in the 2nd November auction, but they're not sure how many yet (or weren't when I spoke to them).

Easy to spot - "By order of a REIT", and a quick look at the legal pack.

Some are eg former guest houses or obvious HMOs, but many are just regular terraced houses, on regular (but cheap) streets. That must have been a fun time for the neighbours having an unmanaged doss house next door, and who now also get their comparatives blighted.

Eg

[epistrophy] 03/10/2023 08:49

Where are the properties being sold? Are they all going through Allsop?