Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

[gengulphus] 02/11/2012 19:15

blowitall,

Just to add to the above advice, the CGT calculators do the job nicely if it's just market buys and sells of shares. If it's other types of asset, or if gifts or private buys and sells are involved, or if corporate actions such as rights issues, takeovers for shares in a different company, etc, are involved for shares, don't try to convert them into buys and sells to input into the calculators: the correct ways to do that are not always the obvious ones, and in some cases (rather extreme ones in general) I don't know of any correct way to do it! Instead, ask with some details of what you're trying to deal with.

Gengulphus

[david77] 02/11/2012 17:48

And there are translators on the www.stonebanks.co.uk website to convert input format from one calculator to the other so you don't have to type the data twice.

[miata] 02/11/2012 17:17

You could use the HMRC sheets



or a cgtcalculator



www.stonebanks.co.uk

I think we have confidence in both of those. If you don't, then try them both and when they produce the same result (give or take a pound), you will have.

[blowitall] 02/11/2012 17:13

Can anyone out there help me.
Up until last year my former business accountant did my tax return. Times are hard at present and with my recent losses I need to save every penny...Centamin in particular springs to mind!!
Whilst I have a basic grasp of how to calculate my gains(I wish) and losses I am trying to find some spead sheet or similar where I can simply input the buys and sells and calculate the necessary. Or do I need to do it manually. I have found some websites that seem to offer something similar but I don't have much confidence in them.
Any help and guidance re this and general pitfalls to watch out for appreciated.

Blowitall

[gengulphus] 31/10/2012 12:07

Thanks for that confirmation - it's a bit embarrassing not to have found it yesterday, considering I was just one page away with one of my links... But being able to look at exactly what it says is rather more important!

The fact that the 'first in, first out' rule only applies if you cannot prove which shares they were is rather different from the share matching rules used for CGT, which apply even if you can prove which shares they were. E.g. for CGT, you can sell shares from one broker account, buy the same type of shares in a different broker account on a later date (but 30 days or fewer after the sale) and be told by the CGT matching rules to treat the shares sold as being the shares bought - despite the fact that they cannot possibly be those shares both because of the different account and because of the timing!

It does suggest to me that there may be good uses for multiple accounts for IHT business property relief on shares that you might wish to partially sell - uses of a type that doesn't exist for CGT. Haven't yet worked out the best way to do it, though!

Gengulphus

[pedr01] 31/10/2012 07:50

Yes you were right - First in First out

[pedr01] 31/10/2012 07:43

Thanks Gengulphus for taking the time out to reply in such detail. I shall check out the links.

[gengulphus] 30/10/2012 19:35

Pedr01,

There were two similarly-named '2-year' rules that applied to many AIM shares:

* Business asset taper relief, which applied to CGT and took the gain you were actually charged CGT on down to 25% of the actual gain after 2 years (or 50% of it between 1 and 2 years). This disappeared in April 2008 as part of the CGT simplifications that came in then.

* Business property relief, which applies to IHT and makes the asset exempt from IHT after holding it for two years (no partial exemption before that).

As this is the CGT board, it's hardly surprising people thought you were talking about business asset taper relief!

The basic rules about when a share qualifies for business property relief are that it must be in a trading company (not an investment company) and the share must not be officially listed on any 'recognised stock exchange' anywhere in the world. Most trading companies whose shares are traded on AIM qualify, as AIM is not classified as a 'recognised stock exchange' - but watch out for ones that have a listing on a foreign 'recognised stock exchange' as well as being traded on AIM, because that will disqualify them.

As regards the remaining holding after a sale still qualifying, basically yes. But I do not properly understand what happens if you have a holding that, on your death, has some acquisitions more than two years ago and some less, and also has some partial disposals. E.g. suppose you bought 10,000 qualifying shares 3 years before your death, bought another 10,000 shares 18 months before your death, and sold half of the resulting 20,000-share holding 6 months before your death. Did you sell the first 10,000 shares, so that the remaining holding is only 18 months old and so not exempt, or the second 10,000 shares, so that the remaining holding is 3 years old and so exempt, or some mixture?

I remember reading something years ago, I think in an HMRC manual, that suggested to me that it was essentially 'first in, first out' in such cases (so that the remaining 10,000 shares in my example would not be exempt), at least in cases where the precise shares disposed of could not be identified by means such as serial numbers (which traded shares generally don't have!). Unfortunately, I have never managed to locate it again and so cannot check whether my memory is correct - and of course even if it is correct, the reason I cannot find it might be that the rules have changed in that area. So don't take what I say here as a proper answer about the multiple acquisitions / partial disposal scenario - just as a heads-up that if you have such a potential situation, you might want to take specialist advice about it, or at least leave a letter to your executors with your will telling them about the potential issue.

Selling a share that qualifies for business property relief and buying another does seem to fall within the "replacement property" provisions of business property relief. This isn't all that clear in the material I've found on the relief in the Inheritance Tax manual, which is available from the links in - or at least not from the parts I have managed to both read and understand! That material seems mainly to talk about replacement shares obtained through a takeover or other corporate action, not through selling and buying. But the Shares and Assets Valuation manual has some useful stuff - e.g. and have some detailed rules, plus examples that explicitly include selling and buying.

Gengulphus

[pedr01] 30/10/2012 11:08

Thanks for the heads up David ...

[david77] 30/10/2012 10:42

You are right Pedr01 - I said "some" 'cos it doesn't apply to property shares. I don't know about roll-over relief - suggest you Google "hmrc rollover relief" - you'll get several links to follow.

[pedr01] 30/10/2012 09:17

I thought AIM shares still qualified for Business Property Relief for IHT purposes (??) under the Finance Act 2012. (I am looking at the Tilly Baker Guide to AIM UK Tax Benefits).

Has BPR for IHT totally disappeared? Or is it just the roll-over that has gone ??

Thanks in advance

[papy02] 30/10/2012 09:13

Many thanks MIATA. That makes sense.

It is what I was assuming, but your (very clear) rationale is what I was missing, so I started wondering if I was making an assumption too far.

Thanks again.

[miata] 30/10/2012 08:26

My view: Probate value is base cost. Any gain from marrying the respective shares in the house together occurs after the transfer to you (at probate discounted value) and is a gain you make.

OMV was used merely as a part of the basis for assessing a true valuation of your share, a bit like saying when valuing a vase, a vase without a crack would be worth £10,000 but as this vase has a crack its worth £5,000.

[david77] 30/10/2012 08:23

The 2-year rule is no more. You can get IHT relief on some AIM shares but otherwise they are treated as any other share.

[pedr01] 30/10/2012 07:43

I have a AIM holding that qualifies for the 2 year rule, and I want to sell part of it to buy into another AIM share else. Could someone confirm (or otherwise) that;

1. The remaining existing AIM holding will still qualifiy under the 2 year rule
2. The new holding (bought using the proceeds) will qualify).

What if I didn't buy into another AIM share. Would the remaining holding still qualify ??

Thanks loads in advance.

[papy02] 29/10/2012 20:35

Hi,

As executor for my Dad's estate, for Probate I applied a 10% "co-ownership discount" on the open-market value of his half-share of his house (as we his children, owned the other half).

The eventual sale price for the house was greater than the open-market valuation used for probate/IHT, but only by a few %, and HMRC have confirmed they are OK on the IHT front (so accept both the few %, and the 10% discount).

I have a query re CGT. I believe that as his half of his house was a specific-gift in his will (to his children), any Capital Gain between the Probate Value and the actual sale-price (after allowable costs) is deemed to be made by the legatees (us "children").

What I'm uncertain of is whether the base-cost for this gain is the actual value we used for Probate/IHT (i.e. after applying the 10% co-ownership discount), or is per the open-market valuation we obtained (ie before the 10% discount). This makes the difference between us owing CGT or not.

I'd be very grateful for any views, or tips on how to get to an answer.

[miata] 28/10/2012 07:28

Good luck, I'm afraid you will need it, but you can but ask.

[niuqrat] 28/10/2012 01:56

Hi guys. anyone know what the rules are on paying cgt gains on time?. i have got to pay around £30k this year on gains related to property and shares. Unfortunately i have made major losses this year so hoping to pay in instalments from jan 31st onwards

[tonudiki] 22/10/2012 10:48

Thank you.

[gengulphus] 21/10/2012 19:45

Correct - your ISA dealings are basically completely 'invisible' to the tax system, so as far as tax is concerned, all that happens on the day concerned is that you sell the shares in the non-ISA account.

Gengulphus

[tonudiki] 21/10/2012 18:13

Hi gengulphus

I own shares in the same company in both an ordinary trading nominee account and also in a Shares ISA.

As I do not have to advise the IR about my Shares ISA dealings, please could you advise me if I am correct in thinking that, on the same day, I could sell some of my shares from the "nominee a/c" and purchase the same quantity in my "Shares ISA" account without falling foul of the "same day" rules on the disposal from the Nominee a/c?

Many thanks

[plasybryn] 25/9/2012 09:53

Why the spike this morning?

[gengulphus] 24/9/2012 07:27

As far as I am aware, a loss on a second home is claimable no matter how long or short the period you have owned it for. I don't guarantee to be aware of every rule in the area, of course - but I think I would have come across a rule saying a short period makes it unclaimable if there were such a rule...

Gengulphus

[bunlop] 22/9/2012 20:29

During tax year 2011/12 I purchased a second house and then sold it a few months later as my circumstances changed. I lost £8000 om the transaction. Can I offset this capital loss against capital gains on shares. I am not sure that you can claim capital losses on a second home unless you have owned it for some time?

Can anyone help

Many thanks in advance