Ruffer Investment Share Discussion Threads

[lowtrawler] 31/5/2023 15:25

spoole5, while the NAV has been disappointing over the past 12 months, it is similar to the rest of the sector. CGT has fallen by 6.5% over the past 12 months, PNL by 1.6% and so RICA's fall of 4.1% is not surprising.

The point you are trying to make is not immediately obvious. You swing from advising everyone to just buy equities to putting money into bonds or a mix of the two. In reality, an equity only approach would definitely not preserve wealth should markets fall. Bonds have recently been moving in parallel with equities and so do not meet the requirement for wealth preservation. The wealth preservation trusts attempt to manage the assets to give a greater chance of wealth preservation. There is never any guarantee and their true value will only be seen if markets decline.

Taking joy at lacklustre performance when markets are not in decline fails to understand the purpose of these types of fund. As I have said before, they are not for everyone and should only be used as part of a balanced portfolio. If you have no need for this type of fund, that is perfectly fine. However, criticising them for poor performance when market conditions have not met their criteria to perform just shows ignorance.

[spoole5] 31/5/2023 14:46

Another fall in the NAV. #wealthpreservation

[spoole5] 26/5/2023 16:37

Ruffer's single investment strategy is defined by two simple investment objectivesNot to lose money in any 12 month periodGenerate returns meaningfully ahead of the return on cashFAILFAIL

[essentialinvestor] 25/5/2023 15:30

Their bond holdings taking a hit?.

[edwardt] 25/5/2023 15:14

8 discount and i will part with my money here. not before.

[essentialinvestor] 24/5/2023 09:23

I've held some PNL for years and outside severe market dislocation or panic it's available to sell or buy within their targeted discount range.

Like anything else in equity markets there is no guarantee.

[brwo349] 24/5/2023 08:54

If 1 or 2 of the larger shareholders think, hey we need some income, and sell out to invest elsewhere then there is no way the discount control mechanism will be able to cope with large scale selling.

[essentialinvestor] 24/5/2023 08:51

brwo, PNL operate a strict discount control mechanism so very unlikely there,
but it's a very valid point re a NAV discount allowing for some margin of safety.

[spoole5] 24/5/2023 08:43

May as well be 100% in equities.

[brwo349] 24/5/2023 08:28

These trusts like RICA, CGT, PNL should be on 15% discounts imo. They may almost no dividend. That was OK when interest rates were close to zero. Not now. Who would buy something like this in the current market environment.

[lowtrawler] 23/5/2023 22:50

Yes, most of the asset preservation trusts have treaded water for the past 2 years. They have been anticipating a sharp downturn which has not yet happened. That's their job. They will forego gains to ensure no major losses. They will only prove their worth if the downturn actually happens.

[essentialinvestor] 23/5/2023 22:43

PNL and RICA appear to have positioned for a sharp macro slowdown and equity downdraft,
which to this point has not materialised.

Tbf I would look at a 3 year basis to measure performance.

[spoole5] 23/5/2023 22:20

They can't call themselves capital preservation trusts at the moment, just losing money by holding different assets.

[hsfinch] 23/5/2023 20:53

Interesting how various capital preservation trusts are drifting down. Personal Assets. Rothschild. Capital Gearing. Ruffer. Too early to dip your toes in IMO. SIT ON THE SIDE AND WAIT.

[spoole5] 23/5/2023 11:54

Maybe they should start shorting their own stock as part of their alternative strategy!

[pvb] 23/5/2023 11:16

My guess would be their holdings of US Treasury's etc. are taking a dive, given the present political shenanigans in the US.

[bpdon] 23/5/2023 11:00

There's certainly some story telling and narratives involved with Ruffer. Despite the ugly slide over the last month, I have to confess to being seduced by it and with some justification. I have added today.

RICA is still less than 10% of my portfolio. Overall I have been heavily weighted towards risk off since early last year. It hasn't worked out how I hoped. Easy on hindsight.

[lowtrawler] 23/5/2023 10:41

The latest published NAV is over 290p and, at a historic premium of 3%, the share price would normally be sitting around 300p. Pretty flat over the past couple of years. They are clearly suffering in the absence of a market crash. Defensive trusts have not been a good sector over the past 2 years and RICA is no exception. Given the rare discount to NAV, we may see some share buybacks.

[edwardt] 23/5/2023 10:02

the posh boys over thinking it trying to be too clever?

[spoole5] 23/5/2023 09:18

Trading like an AIM stock!

[spoole5] 22/5/2023 13:24

No end to the falls here #wealthpreservation

[spoole5] 16/5/2023 19:43

Especially with a 1.1% annual management fee, twice that of CGT.

[edwardt] 16/5/2023 17:21

don't bet on it. asset gathering is helps preserve their wealth.