Environ.Recycle Share Discussion Threads

[times104] 06/12/2010 10:13

iasike......many thanks for your dose of cold water especially on a freezing cold Monday morning.You are quite correct in your write up but with one correction.Quite a bit of what you write is guess work supposition etc etc.and that is not a criticism, but a statement of fact.If what you were writing was a fact ie you were part of 2K management or ENRT ie on the inside, that would be a different matter, but obviously you are not.
From my gleanings it appears that many of the delays have been deliberatly caused by 2K striving to create engineering improvements such that the final production model will be superior to the original.We shall see. Additionally I do believe that there is slightly too much emphasis being placed on the production of ''boards'' although extremely important right now.It is all the other products that will be made using PIM, which will be massive,which will ultimately produce the golden egg, and that in itself will be fairly large.
IMHO. DYOR. etc

[iasike] 06/12/2010 10:03

sorry about the duplication.
iasike

[iasike] 06/12/2010 09:53

Sorry Mirandaj, I'm obviously not saying anything you want to hear. so see if I can change that.

I think the PIM process may well have many benefits, and may well be very successful, from an investing point of view, I think it's still very high risk as far as ENRT goes. (They're far from financially sound as yet).

If there any particular points you disagree with let me know, or is it just the writting style?

cheers
iasike

[mirandaj] 06/12/2010 09:03

iasike - 5 Dec'10 - 14:33 - 1309 of 1316

and other posts refer.

"I can't believe I'm writting this"

Ha Ha - I find it hard to believe that you wrote it and other posts either. What did you wish to achieve?

I am glad that you say you have 'had enough'.

[tsk 1] 05/12/2010 20:54

2jinxed -

Bring my helicopter back - and my camera.

[tsk 1] 05/12/2010 20:41

Well said iasike. My feelings exactly, although "thickness tolerances, length & width tolerances, machineability, weight, stability" are superior to anything else which has the same proportions IMV. But they need time to make a good impression, if you'll pardon the pun. However you've explained the general situation far better than I could.

...and in duplicate as well. I'll give you extra marks for that. LOL

[iasike] 05/12/2010 19:23

2 jinxed, thanks for that globalwood lead, and write up from the Timber Trades Journal, I can only think once again that 2k are being extremely optimistic about their production capabilities, if they're going to take in 30,000 tonnes of plastic waste as described.

They've only just got one mould going producing 50 sheets per day.

With regards to pricing, they are either misinformed or trying to mislead.

I understand their selling prices to distributors is somewhere around £23 sheet
Importers would need to sell this at £28 - £30 per sheet.

I've got a year old importers catalogue with prices for plywood:-
OSB £13 - £15 sheet
a coated version of OSB £22 - £25 sheet
Birch Plywood is a similar price to the Ecosheet
Coniferous plywood sell @ Between £13 & £21 per sheet (Various qualities)
Indonesian/Malayan Plywood £23 - £26 per sheet

In my opinion they are going to have to look for niche markets,

All very well the Bovis's etc okaying the product, wait until they have to pay for it.

Uk Plywood imports I am estimating at around 1.25m cubic metres.
note I am saying plywood, not Panel Products which also includes chipboard, mdf and OSB.

Another estimate is that 2440 x 1220 x 18mm only represents 15% of that volume.
187,500 cubic metres. So the market they are going for is 18,750 cubic metres.

I think they will do well to gain 10% of that market, but I havn't seen the board yet or what it will do. ie thickness tolerances, length & width tolerances
machineability, weight, stability, all these things come into play.

Their 1 line has the capacity to produce 500 sheets per day which comes out to 9749.88 cubic metres working 365 days per year.

I can only think the other factories they have in mind will produce other thicknesses, the problem with this is that the production time is probably similar to produce say 9mm as it is for 18mm.

I can't figure their numbers out. The other thing I can't figure out is the logistics. From what I can gather, there isn't room for the incoming raw material in the volumes mentioned (30,000 tonnes pa) doesn't sound too much does it, but say they need to carry 1 months stock of this which would be 2500 tons, this is the equivalent of 125 lorry loads.

I've had enough

goodnight

[iasike] 05/12/2010 19:23

2 jinxed, thanks for that globalwood lead, and write up from the Timber Trades Journal, I can only think once again that 2k are being extremely optimistic about their production capabilities, if they're going to take in 30,000 tonnes of plastic waste as described.

They've only just got one mould going producing 50 sheets per day.

With regards to pricing, they are either misinformed or trying to mislead.

I understand their selling prices to distributors is somewhere around £23 sheet
Importers would need to sell this at £28 - £30 per sheet.

I've got a year old importers catalogue with prices for plywood:-
OSB £13 - £15 sheet
a coated version of OSB £22 - £25 sheet
Birch Plywood is a similar price to the Ecosheet
Coniferous plywood sell @ Between £13 & £21 per sheet (Various qualities)
Indonesian/Malayan Plywood £23 - £26 per sheet

In my opinion they are going to have to look for niche markets,

All very well the Bovis's etc okaying the product, wait until they have to pay for it.

Uk Plywood imports I am estimating at around 1.25m cubic metres.
note I am saying plywood, not Panel Products which also includes chipboard, mdf and OSB.

Another estimate is that 2440 x 1220 x 18mm only represents 15% of that volume.
187,500 cubic metres. So the market they are going for is 18,750 cubic metres.

I think they will do well to gain 10% of that market, but I havn't seen the board yet or what it will do. ie thickness tolerances, length & width tolerances
machineability, weight, stability, all these things come into play.

Their 1 line has the capacity to produce 500 sheets per day which comes out to 9749.88 cubic metres working 365 days per year.

I can only think the other factories they have in mind will produce other thicknesses, the problem with this is that the production time is probably similar to produce say 9mm as it is for 18mm.

I can't figure their numbers out. The other thing I can't figure out is the logistics. From what I can gather, there isn't room for the incoming raw material in the volumes mentioned (30,000 tonnes pa) doesn't sound too much does it, but say they need to carry 1 months stock of this which would be 2500 tons, this is the equivalent of 125 lorry loads.

I've had enough

goodnight

[iasike] 05/12/2010 18:26

2jinxed, They're telling us when they're going to be producing before they have raised the funds. I suppose you can have plans to do so, but the wording of the RNS's leads you to believe they'll be producing when they say. Just look at how many times they've got it wrong.

I've been told by a few that they are clever people. Maybe so, but they sure as hell have got their timing wrong.

70 recruits by the end of this year, I am taking it he means recruits for the Luton site. Say an average cost per employee £25k.

Full Production of the 1 line would bring in somewhere around £4m
Less
Payments to ENRT I Think for the licence it was £2m over 3 years £.666m
Royalty Payment to ENRT say £1 per sheet £.18m
Wages £1.75m

Although this is being portrayed as a "Green" Product, I believe the energy costs won't be chicken feed.

I wonder if he meant a profit in 2011 when he would have expected to be in full production.

I would be amazed if 2k make a profit in 2011.

A they've still got to make the sheets
B they've still go to sell them

[perfect choice] 05/12/2010 16:45

Thought that was called developing a technology/process for manufacturing. Once done it is a case of replication for volume. The first clearly takes the time!

[2jinxed] 05/12/2010 15:11

Potem You are welcome, nice to see this thread is jollying along nicely now, mm maybe one should only post at weekends.

I see excitement on iii about our new retailer; personally I don't think he will sell a single board!! Not that there is anything wrong with the board.

Iasike nice to see you here as well as MW site well you did write it, so if I may enquire which bit do you find FISHY??

[iasike] 05/12/2010 14:33

Have been doing a little research on enrt and 2k, and can't help thinking something fishy is going on.

RNS 6/12/2007 production expected to commence in late 2008

RNS 1/7/2008 look forward to full scale production by 2k in 2009

RNS 17/9/2008 delay in full scale production, awaits completion of fundraising
due to complete shortly. (Also mention of olympic seats)

RNS 12/1/2009 £5m funding package to open a production facility in 2009

RNS 30/6/2009 Production of eco sheet by 2k on stream to commence in July

RNS 14/9/2009 2k acquired factory site at Luton, has already installed it's
first machinery there.

Daily Mail report 26/2/2010 2k employs 16 in Luton hopes to recruit 70 by end of year, also expects to return a profit.

RNS 29/6/2010 2k moves closer to volume production.

RNS Late November 2010 volume production started


There's volume production and full scale production.
My understanding is they have one line which consists of 10 moulds capable of producing 500 sheets per day.

And he expects to return a profit in the same year as he starts up, and before he's started any sort of production?

I can't believe I'm writting this.

[potem] 04/12/2010 11:55

2J : Thanks for that.

Interesting more for where it was published (and the readership) than the repeat information. They obviously think their readers will be interested in the potential of the product. ("An emerging threat to commodity grade tropical hardwood plywood in certain lower grade applications in the European market was highlighted in a recent article in The Sunday Times").

Lets just hope that 2k can go on to prove sustainable long-term production in quantity.

[2jinxed] 04/12/2010 07:27

What more smoke and Steam? wheres my camera.

[mark30] 03/12/2010 17:46

More of the same I suspect

[2jinxed] 03/12/2010 15:53

interesting Mr Kutluoglu employs 16 but, hopes to recruit 70 by the yesr end,(2010) he also expects to be in profit.



He also says that demand will probably outstrip production!!



Above is the factory, if you zoom in you will note there are more than 3 cars parked,LOL and if you look very very close you will see the steam and smoke coming out of the chimney..

Do have a good weekend!! I wonder what next week may bring??

[bluebelle] 03/12/2010 13:34

Morning Ron.

[ron atkinson] 03/12/2010 13:01

Morning Bluebelle.

[bluebelle] 03/12/2010 12:16

A quid a sheet to us


No. Not exactly. Royalties go to ENRT plc. Historically the interests of ENRT, and of the private shareholders in ENRT, have not exactly been perfectly aligned. This time round it could, of course, be different.

[2jinxed] 03/12/2010 11:17

The ecosheet came on to the website recently and probably comes from 2k.

Well if they don't make it then one can only assume that 2K make it, a bit misleading all the same! I trust you are not saying Protomax which is showing their board ON THEIR NEW WEBSITE is also being supplied by 2K?

Never the less if they are selling on behalf of 2K it still means A quid a sheet to us, although £37 a sheet is a little bit ott.IMO

[jack horner] 03/12/2010 10:55

Thanks 2J.
ENRT must at all times protect the IP, in turn the shareholders.
There was always going to come a time when eyes n ears would be needed
to spot the cheeky blighters. That time is here!

[potem] 03/12/2010 10:33

2j : The ecosheet came on to the website recently and probably comes from 2k. It does not seem to be the same stuff as the rest of the items on the website which does not claim they are made using PIM.

[2jinxed] 03/12/2010 10:02

If you think they are cheeky blighters what do you make of this link below?

If you look on the left hand side down a bit, prices miscellaneous you will note £37 quid for a sheet, on the right hand view gallery side planter and stuff like that, have to say like the gate and fence.

I would think this could add some value to the present share price as it confirms that the PIM process is credible and if they don't have a licence then they will have to get one!! or shut up shop, who knows maybe ENRT can pick up the moulds on the cheap..Or 2K will have a ready-made factory.

Please do post this on other BB but please remember where it came from.lol

[jack horner] 02/12/2010 23:25

2Jinxed 1296.

Cheeky little blighters, yep needs nipping in the bud!