Deltex Medical Share Discussion Threads

[february 30th] 25/6/2016 21:43

The EU has not spread parliamentary democracy across Europe. Having spent a fair amount of time in East and Central Europe, what the EU has done is legitimized a once and for all transfer of wealth from the state to well-placed private individuals and companies. Indeed the people who benefited the most from the fall of Communism were the communists themselves. The Communist attitudes and structures still exist. People are afraid of expressing their opinions, they believe they are being watched. The communists have been replaced by a kleptocratic mafia. The wealthy in East Europe have by and large made their money through theft, rather than entrepreneurism. There are no Tomas Batas any more. It's been 27 years since the fall of Communism, and the region has not really changed, at least outside the capital cities.

Do people know they can urge their MP's to ignore the referendum and vote as they see fit? That's still democracy in action- this isn't the end of a process, it's the beginning.

Yes, that's true. But any Labour MP in an English or Welsh constituency which voted for Leave who voted for the referendum to be ignored would lose their seat their seat at the next election. Furthermore, if parliament ignored the referendum, the far right would explode into action.

[doglover2003] 25/6/2016 21:13

Supern

Sanctions have little or no effect in autocratic states.
Just look at North Korea if you don'y accept this proposition.
How much "pain" do you think Putin feels from sanctions.
Has it changed his behavior? I am not saying that sanctions are uselss
but that their value is limited if not backed up by at least the threat
of a more aggressive response.

As regards the Yorkshire Post article, this demonstrates very well the
insidious way in which the EU issues patronage to curry favour for its institution. They bribe us with our own money! Is it any surprise that the
LEAVE side resort to similar tactics. It really is unworthy for organisations
to plead the Remain case based on their own selfish interest which they know
is funded by UK citizens. Your acquaintance in Cambridge area should indeed decamp to the EU if her research is EU focused. If not she should stop winging.
I know someone who trades with most of the EU states and he is livid that he will have to register for VAT in each of the member states individually rather than just from UK. The alternative is to decamp to Switzerland. Such situations are unavoidable when you decide that you want change course. If you were intending travelling to Aberdeen and then changed your mind and headed for St austell your map of Scotland which you paid for can be binned ( or filed away for another trip).

BREXIT is a wake-up call for Europe. If one of the most significant members decides to leave there must be something very wrong and tinkering with the rules
will be of little use. Europe has a future if it ditches the EU and replaces it with a free trade area and voluntary associations to promote other goals.

[gnnmartin] 25/6/2016 20:50

I read this elsewhere, and thought it worth repeating.

Do people know they can urge their MP's to ignore the referendum and vote as they see fit? That's still democracy in action- this isn't the end of a process, it's the beginning.

[supernumerary] 25/6/2016 20:29

doggy - I have to agree - shameful. Should have done much more, but remember the best is the enemy of the good - they did at least impose sanctions, which are hurting Russia, and Putin is no doubt cracking open the Krug at this result in delighted anticipation of more EU strife. Without the EU, there would have been absolutely no meaningful European response to Putin's invasion of Crimea.

As for your earlier question about what the EU has done for the UK, while I dislike the 'what's in it for me' argument, have a quick look at this: I imagine Wales will also suffer the same problem given the extent to which their economy has been supported by EU grants.

In the same vein, I only know of one person (other than those of us who own shares of course) who's been immediately affected by this vote. She runs a research company in the Cambridge area which is dependent on EU grants. They're now forced to consider relocating to Germany to ensure their survival - a decade of British development on the cusp of commercialisation that's likely to disappear overseas. A straw in the wind I fear.

[wigwammer] 25/6/2016 20:17

Thanks for conceding the EU has been central to the spread of parliamentary democracy across Europe. I can't begin to imagine how that process has benefited the UK.You mention a professor la-di-da so clearly need to be taken seriously. To be clear, it is quite difficult to suggest we have lost our sovereign power, when evidently we are invoking precisely that power to boot out EU law. If the influence of unelected bodies is your issue - best have a word with Boris about our judicial system, central bank, unelected second chamber, sprawling bureaucracy, monarchy, and a vast series of private sector institutions now deemed too big to fail. Hope it's becoming clearer now.

[doglover2003] 25/6/2016 20:04

Supernumerary,

As the birthplace of Parliamentary democracy Britain is an exemplar to the world indeed.

However, your examples of post-accession countries highlighting East Germany are badly chosen as they in no way advance the Remain case.

I visited Russia and most of its satellite countries including East Germany in 1966. Do you honestly believe that these countries were waiting for the EU's offer for them to embrace democracy? Of course not, they could not wait to remove the shackles of the failed Soviet Behemoth.

However, if you want to home in on the EU at work all you have to do is look at
how the EU's overtures to Ukraine ended. No EU membership followed by a bloody nose from Russia.

The EU is failing quasi-state which id not even prepared to spend the 2 per cent of GDP required to defend its members. In stead it feels "safe"with US protection. Shameful!

[supernumerary] 25/6/2016 19:38

yump - I'm assuming the brexiteers with their keenness to end the unelected, undemocratic institutions will immediately press for the abolition of the House of Lords, and I suppose a republic will logically follow - how long will Mme Sturgeon wish to bend the knee to an unelected English monarch? And who knows where that might lead? ;¬)

wiggy - I'll second that. I was in Eastern Europe both before and after the Iron Curtain disappeared, and in East Berlin before the wall fell and immediately afterwards. I've also visited the post-accession Eastern European countries that British influence helped to bring into the European Union. Anybody who doesn't think that was an immense force for good doesn't understand what was involved.

[doglover2003] 25/6/2016 19:35

What kind of democracy requires as a backstop an unaccountable autocracy?
As Professor Robert Tombs has said that there are (were) 28 members who have each
given up sovereignty but no body seems to have assumed that sovereignty.

And now the difficult question what net benefit is there to UK from EU?

[wigwammer] 25/6/2016 18:05

"Name one significant benefit to all EU members."The spread of parliamentary democracy across Europe engendering decades of peace and stability. Hope that helps.

[doglover2003] 25/6/2016 16:48

What a pathetic crowd you all are.

Name one significant benefit which the UK has received in return for its significant annual contributions.

Name one significant benefit to all EU members.

And don't tell me about climate change because without a global effort
no progress is made.

Were we chained to a dead carcass? No, more like it jumping from a runaway train!

[yump] 25/6/2016 16:37

The 'they took our jobs' (ref: South Park) leave voters are going to get a shock when they discover that an uncertain economy will actually have its largest effect on them. Not the 'elite', not the politicians, not the establishment.

Also pretty disturbing that the middle aged onwards voters appear to have left a legacy that at least 60% of people up to the age of 35 did not want.

Perhaps before spouting about the future and then voting leave, they should have asked their sons and daughters what they would like to see in their future.

At least we can look forward to complaining about our own unelected elite Sir Humphreys. There will be more of them of course now. We surely have an excellent labour market in pen-pushing, which can now be rejuvenated.

[supernumerary] 25/6/2016 15:47

Yes, decidedly bonkers. An old petition from May of last year seems to have gained a new lease of life, surprise, surprise. You can find it here:

I think it's a pretty forlorn hope, but given the rate at which the brexiteers are backtracking on their promises (Boris gone to ground in his bunker, Farage reneging on NHS spending, Liam Fox saying EU immigration will remain much the same), it seems clear that there'll be at least some of them looking for any excuse to halt what they've so foolishly set in motion.

Even if the juggernaut does roll on, 500 MPs are pro-remain - how are they going to implement something they disagree with? Interesting times...

[wigwammer] 25/6/2016 10:57

I too am proud of Britain and our history. But this isn't the 1940s, there is no enemy at the gate, there is no great victory to be won, it is embarrassing to suggest comparisons with our history, imo. The very fact that parliament is on the verge of throwing out EU law is testament to the point that democracy and our sovereignty were never under threat. On the contrary, as one of the three bully boys within the EU we able to push parliamentary democracy across member states as a condition of entry. That lacks muscle now one of the bullies has jumped ship.Yes, we can make more law in the uk, assuming we navigate the nasty road ahead. But ponder this... Is there any good reason to believe this law is likely to look earth shatteringly different to what we had in Europe? The people have spoken, fair enough. But it's all a bit bonkers.

[parsons4] 25/6/2016 07:06

I agree Feb 30th. This was an historic vote for democracy. IMO the EU is doomed
anyway most of the population don't agree with what the unelected EU commission is doing anyway. It is always the UK that stands up and fights I am very proud to be British !!!!

[february 30th] 24/6/2016 22:22

No, Brexit won because the Labour Party had lost touch with the white working class. If they had put the interests of their base first, from 1997 onwards, it might not have come to this. You can probably blame Tony Blair, for his ideallistic obsession with enlargement and inclusiveness. Though to be honest, the EU/EEC was probably doomed the moment Communism fell in 1989. The ex-Communist countries would get membership, with all its consequences, and all its undercutting of West European wages. Yes, I know, Poles work harder than the benefits-bred locals, but that's not the point.

[casablanca4] 24/6/2016 15:41

RÉVOLUTION

[arf dysg] 24/6/2016 15:04

Yump: too right.


Q: How many Trotskyites does it take to change a light bulb?

A: It can't be changed! It's got to be SMASHED!!!


Replace Trotsky with a certain segment of the Conservative Party and there you have it.

[casablanca4] 24/6/2016 13:40

Bought £500 @ 3.9. The only way is up.

[doglover2003] 24/6/2016 13:25

On balance decline in Sterling good for DEMG.

[yump] 24/6/2016 10:30

Including democracy.

[arf dysg] 24/6/2016 10:28

Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaa

ha.

Below 4p, but then everything's at risk just at the moment.

[ramnik007] 21/6/2016 12:45

Good to see share price not dropping below 4p again !