Canadian General Investm... Share Discussion Threads

[tiltonboy] 14/1/2013 11:51

SKYSHIP,

Hadn@t realised you were in these; I've started to pick up a few recently.

[skyship] 21/12/2012 11:08

XD - both income and capital payments.

[skyship] 18/12/2012 16:52

Good news. Panmures appointed UK broker. Has to raise the profile of a stock which is so far under the radar...Expect a BUY Note within a couple of months, possibly just into the New Year:

[skyship] 31/10/2012 09:03

All I can think is that an institution has been slowly selling down a stake in what is always a limited market. They stood at an NAV discount of 20% none months ago - now at 30%! A recovery to that 20% figure would deliver a 14% rise in itself.

MMA state they are unable to instigate buybacks, as any increase in their already large holding would trigger a loss of tax benefits.

So, I suppose holders just have to sit it out, wait for the tap to exhaust and a return to the norm. No hardship for UK holders seeking a little currency diversification and a 5% yield whilst they wait...

[pimsim] 31/10/2012 08:27

It would be quite a big bit of the portfolio though (around 20% I think) which I assume would need to be offloaded gently in advance to get the best return. As you say, a new issue would seem the obvious route and of course none of this is relevant unless the holders insist on a redemption.

Just trying to think of possible reasons why the price remains so significantly below NAV?

[skyship] 31/10/2012 07:16

Pimsim - No problem. Why should it be? This is an investment company, they merely sell part of the portfolio to redeem the gearing debt; though of course more likely would be the issue of replacement stock.

[pimsim] 30/10/2012 18:38

This looks interesting.

Other than the usual investing risks, one fly in the ointment looks to be the possible forced redemption of $75m preference shares in March 2014 and a further $75m in March 2016. Unlikely to be an issue looking at the running yield but does create some uncertainty. Any thoughts?

[praipus] 21/8/2012 16:31

No CGI holding but would be pleased to see gold rise.

[skyship] 21/8/2012 16:04

Yes - think so. If the flying gold price eventually kick starts the gold stocks we could see a positive performance from the CGI NAV...

[praipus] 21/8/2012 15:22

Was it when we exchanged emails?

[skyship] 21/8/2012 15:04

Praipus - wonder what happened to those two posts above!/#~?

I think I was commenting that no holders known other than MMA Investments with c35% - which is why they plead they are unable to make buybacks. They say they have a special tax exemption which would be invalidated if they increased their holding. Smacks of piffle to me. In such cases you ask the authorities for exemption from arcane legislation.

In the meantime MCT still trade at a mere 2% discount whereas CGI trade at a 28% discount.

[praipus] 23/7/2012 10:49

Skyship is their any info on who the major holders are at CGI?

Other than you of course:-)

[skyship] 11/7/2012 16:46

TORONTO, CANADA – Canadian General Investments, Limited (CGI) reports on an unaudited basis that its net asset value per share (NAV) at June 30, 2012 was $20.79, resulting in year-to-date and 12-month NAV returns, with dividends reinvested, of 2.3% and -5.8%, respectively. These compare with the -1.5% and -10.3% returns of the benchmark S&P/TSX Composite Index on a total return basis for the same periods.

The closing price for CGI's common shares at June 30, 2012 was $15.15, resulting in year-to-date and 12-month market returns, with dividends reinvested, of -4.6% and -11.2%, respectively.

=================================

At $15.15 the NAV discount = 27.1%

[skyship] 03/5/2012 12:07

Posted this elsewhere as it seems a good time to be back into CGI:

=================================================================

We all have stockmarket favourites. One of mine, which I have played many times over the years, playing both swings in market trend and NAV discount, is Canadian & General Investments ("CGI"). Today I've today bought back in again @ 1023p. CGI has both a Toronto and an LSE listing.

I like CGI because it gives me some currency diversification, obviously in this case to the Canadian $. Also, at the current level the NAV discount has risen to an exceptional level – 27.8%.

The end Apr'12 NAV = $22.57 versus the share price of $16.30

Simply a return to the routine long-term discount of 20% would take the share price up to $18.05 for a 10.7% gain!

CGI is also not a bad yielder. It pays $0.06 quarterly then a December Capital Gains distribution of $0.56; though this latter has averaged a higher $0.75 over the past 8years. So an effective yield currently of 4.9%.

IMO CGI is currently on an anomalous discount and provides asset allocation diversification combined with very real prospects of above average share price performance as that discount closes.

Performance: 10yr Compound Annual ROR inc. dividends: 10.2%
The sector weightings of CGI's investment portfolio at market as of April 30, 2012 were as follows:

Energy 23.2%
Materials 20.9%
Financials 19.6%
Consumer Discretionary 10.2%
Information Technology 9.7%
Industrials 8.8%
Telecommunication Services 3.2%
Utilities 2.9%
Cash & Cash Equivalents 1.2%
Consumer Staples 0.6%

The top ten investments which comprised 33.3% of the investment portfolio at market as of April 30, 2012 were as follows:

Labrador Iron Ore Royalty Corporation 4.4
SXC Health Solutions Corp. 4.3
Enbridge Inc. 3.6
Brookfield Canada Office Properties 3.3
Apple Inc. 3.3
Franco-Nevada Corporation 3.3
Dollarama Inc. 3.2
BMTC Group Inc. 3.0
Bank of Montreal 2.6
Pacific Rubiales Energy Corp. 2.3

[munin] 24/1/2010 16:13

Thanks for the info, and hats off to your perseverance.
I've had a look back at the last few CGI dividends received into the ISA, and it does appear that a 15% rate is being applied. Difficult to calculate exactly, as the actual exchange rates used are not known to me. But it is definitely a lot less than 25%, which is being deducted.
As for my Yamana dividends, paid into a Selftrade sharedealing account, they are being hit for 25%, but as they make up such a paltry sum, I don't think I can get worked up enough to take the matter any further.
Anyway, thanks for clearing the issue up. And good luck with your investments, particularly with CGI, and with reclaiming the overpayment of tax.

[asmodeus] 22/1/2010 14:46

Finally, I think, Munin (& others?), I have ascertained that we are definitely subject to a 15% tax, withheld by the Canadians, but that 25% will probably be deducted in error, and that your Broker or ISA manager etc., if they don't do it automatically, should be instructed to claim back the difference. My own (SA manager(Redmayne Bentley). have, somewhat reluctantly agreed to do this on future divs., and I am now trying to get them to do it on all received since June 2005!

[asmodeus] 18/1/2010 20:39

Hello Munin. I've spent quita lot of time on this now, and amazingly enough have yet to find anyone or any website that states quite clearly and confidently what, if any, withholding tax should currently be taken by Canada from dividends paid to UK shareholders. However, if you look at the JDT thread, you will see two comments indicating that we are liable to 15% only, and I have found an informative article stating that if charged "more than our normal UK div. tax rate", a properly-informed broker should be able to claim back any excess. I have sent 2 Emails to the Company itself, without response. My own Broker says 25% is due (and has been deducted). Of course I am now disputing this. Will keep you informed. Asmo.

[munin] 18/1/2010 20:04

Hi Asmodeus,
I'm afraid I've been a bit slack, and actually done no further investigation.
Once I noticed your interest, my idleness got the better of me.
Is it your understanding that the 25% is being taken from us by the Canucks? Or is it Fat Gordon & his Thunderbird Puppet who are trousering our money?
I've no idea about the 17.5%. That's a bit of an estimate, given that we don't actually know what exchange rate was used. I had thought that perhaps the witholding tax was limited to 20% in an ISA, but if this is actually being deducted by the Canadians, then that would not make any sense.
I will eventually get around to trying to get some answers from the Halifax, but in the meantime, please pass on any further info you manage to get.
Thanks,
Munin

[asmodeus] 16/1/2010 11:01

Hello again, Munin. My Broker has now written to me confirming that "as a non-resident of Canada I am subject to a withholding tax of 25%", and this has been deducted from my special dividend. I am still waiting for a reply to the two Emails I sent to the Company itself. What have been your own findings? And how can the fact that you have "only" had 17.5% taken from yours be explained?

[asmodeus] 11/1/2010 20:37

It's my firm belief that normal dividends paid gross from offshore Companies and Funds have no further liability to tax to standard-rate taxpayer, anyway, if held within an ISA. I have a lot of such funds in my own (self-select)ISA.

Have to admit, though, that although holding CGI for several years, I have never before checked to see whether the cap-gains divs. came through whole. But, thanks to you, am certainly looking into this now, and will,advise findings.

[munin] 11/1/2010 19:36

Hi Asmodeus,
I'll try to get in touch with the Halifax later on this week.
I suspect that normal dividends, received gross from foreign companies which have not paid the 20% to the Revenue, have some sort of witholding tax applied. But I'm not sure what rates apply within ISAs. Looking through past receipts, it looks like it's around 20%, whereas the non-ISA statement specifically stated 25%.
Anyway, perhaps it'll all become clear over the course of the week.

[asmodeus] 11/1/2010 08:35

Hello Munin. I have now checked with my own ISA administrators, and sure enough, find that as much as 28% approx has been taken off my $0.5, so have asked them to see whether it is they, or the Canadians that have done this. Will let you know what they find. In the meantime - perhaps you could do the same? My understanding is that all normal dividends are certainly paid gross, and that cap. gains are tax-free, so important to see what's going on here.

[munin] 09/1/2010 12:04

Yes, it looks that something has been deducted.
I believe that the normal CGI quaterly dividends, (even if received in an ISA), also have some sort of witholding tax applied, here at the UK end, (not sure at what rate, but it seems to be around the 17-20% level), but with this particular payment being described as a "Long Term Capital Gain", I wondered if any tax at all should be deducted.
Though I imagine that it is probably Fat Gordon's way of making sure he get's his cut on all dividends received by individuals in this country.
I've noticed that in the case of Yamana, held with Seftrade outside of an ISA, a withholding tax of 25% is applied on all dividend income. Perhaps in an ISA, this is limited to the 20% that is paid up front by UK companies on our dividends?