Bushveld Minerals Share Discussion Threads

[purchaseatthetop] 06/3/2021 11:19

dontay...what you say makes sense:

Preparation method of a vanadium electrolyte, which comprises the following steps: dissolving vanadium pentoxide powder in a concentrated sulfuric acid for activation, adding into deionized water, dissolving and filtering to obtain a pentavalent vanadium ion solution; carrying out electrolysis by using the pentavalent vanadium ion solution as a negative electrode electrolyte solution and a sulfuric acid solution as a positive electrode electrolyte solution to obtain a vanadium ion electrolyte in which the mol ratio of trivalent vanadium to tetravalent vanadium is 1:1, wherein the molar weights of the sulfuric acid in the positive electrode electrolyte solution and the sulfuric acid in the negative electrode electrolyte solution are equal; and adding an additive into the vanadium ion electrolyte, and dissolving to obtain the vanadium electrolyte, wherein the additive comprises a phosphorous compound, and the mass percent of the compound in the vanadium electrolyte is 0.5-1.5%. The preparation method provided by the invention does not influence the service life of the vanadium battery and electrolyte on the premise of enhancing the concentration and stability of the electrolyte.

[dontay] 06/3/2021 10:37

Hi bassguy.Yep, we'll have to wait and see how they are planning to proceed. But my understanding, (not sure why, but think it's something FM mentioned in one of his interviews) is that although Vanchem cannot produce electrolyte in volume it CAN do all the necessary work that's required to prepare large volumes of V for conversion to a fluid ( electrolyte!!) Rightly or wrongly, I envisage that to mean they turn it into some form of dry concentrate prior to the addition of the acids and water in the final chemical process that provides the finished product. We also know that the finished product is highly toxic and has considerable volume.My thinking is, shipping and transportation costs to a third party chemical plant will be considerably less for a dry comparatively non-toxic product with only around one eight of the weight of a toxic fluid, also bearing in mind associated insurance to cover transportation of dangerous substances! The assumed ratio is 5,000 tonnes of Vanadium per GWh of VRFB energy storage. It might be a bit less depending on which version of electrolyte they use. 1MW.h of energy storage is calculated to use between (a conservative) 4-4.5 Metric Tonnes of Vanadium (MTV) and 1 MTV = 1.78 MT of V2O5. 1 MTV = 8 MT of Vanadium ElectrolyteSo if the 'dry weight' is only around one eighth of the fluid weight, the shipping decisions are going to make a considerable difference to those margins! Just musing! :)

[le mailot jaune] 05/3/2021 23:27

Capa Could be worse could support Luton.....Why when talking football do you sound like the Queen wierd

[bassguy] 05/3/2021 17:56

But where is the margin again is we only ship V at constrained prices possibly?

[jc2706] 05/3/2021 14:33

That is certainly the most sensible way to do it.

[dontay] 05/3/2021 13:12

I would have thought the ELZ plant is primarily intended to supply electrolyte for the African market, not the whole world. Surely, out side of Africa, V will be shipped too ... and electrolyte supplied from ... a chemical plant which is nearest to the clients project?BM only have to ship the Vanadium to the UK (Reading) for electrolyte supply to the super-hub. Obviously, in view of the rental agreement with Pivot Power we know it's made no difference to the rental aspects of the deal! For Invinity's USA contracts, wouldn't they equally want to use a USA based chemical plant? And the same for wherever else in the world, Oz for example!

[capablanca64] 05/3/2021 12:31

Well he took Mo Salah off in the second half and did you notice his petulance.... talk about walk like an Egyptian

[capablanca64] 05/3/2021 12:29

Oh well at least you'll avoid having to bother with the Europa League !

[nvhltd] 05/3/2021 11:51

As Mogwhy said and pointed out via the Invinity presentation Q&A. VERL will be buying vanadium electrolyte from BMN / Belco at market rates.

It will be up to VERL to come up with a rental price strategy that can work across the board. However, with the vanadium price volatility as it is VERL could be paying sub €25 one year and plus €120 the next. They can’t just pick a 5 or 10 year average price and apply that to all customers.

So while the rental model may provide an element of stability the question asked was does a rising vanadium price wash through to the rental model and the obvious conclusion is that it must.

The real issue for us is why do we get more meat on the bones of how VERL will operate from our partners than our own BoD?

Why couldn’t Mikhail say that for Invinity, as things stand, is getting the Vanadium electrolyte processed in the U.K. if we are supplying the Vanadium and while we don’t have our own electrolyte plant? Why can’t they say the same thing in relation to Enerox’s electrolyte supply and processing chain?

[coldspring] 05/3/2021 11:08

Klopp and his belligerence are of concern now. 5 straight home defeats and he won't try anything different, it has been worked out. What is the worst that could happen?

[bassguy] 05/3/2021 10:44

Until BMN make it clear how BE is to operate, where it takes margin and what parts of the process it will actually control, all of this is supposition and we cannot know how any V movements affect profits or costs. BMN can charge what they want for Vanadium, even a loss (in theory) if they can make more money on other parts of the deal, so until we know this it is fruitless arguing. I suspect we won't see BMN share price move much due to BE efforts until balance sheets show profits as everything else is uncertain and all the message boards argue about may or may not be happening/relevant.

[capablanca64] 05/3/2021 10:39

From LSE: If BMN could get into bed with every South African minor for self gratification. Weirdos

[jc2706] 05/3/2021 10:31

Leasing is not just about spreading the cost across a number of years, it takes in residual values as well. This is the reason why lease rates for the likes of BMW and Mercedes are not way out of line with those from comparable Fords. As the premium car loses its value more slowly than the mainstream, the total cost of the period is not that much greater.

For Vanadium vs Lithium the cost of the materials used are greater for Vanadium but the residual value is greater and more easily recovered. Hence, it is more amenable to leasing.

[cordwainer] 05/3/2021 10:17

Interesting responses thanks. Although the energy storage business is relatively embryonic in the context of BMN, I'm willing to assume the vertical business is liable to efficiently add product value whatever the sales terms.
Just noticed what seems like a good web resource for following wider industry there:
www.energy-storage.news/news/growing-interest-from-battery-sector-is-driving-vanadium-demand-growth

[capablanca64] 05/3/2021 10:16

Apologies for the off topic but Knuttie is this the worst title defence in sporting history. Apparently they are thinking of adding a H to the YNWA: You'll never win at home

[nvhltd] 05/3/2021 09:58

Purchase: So I am correct as you say. Everyone has welcomed the Vanadium price rise recently. Company A takes out a fixed cost lease agreement in January 2020 at circa €30 and company B waits until December when hopefully the cost of Vanadium is $60 then come B is going to enter into a leasing agreement at twice the cost of company A.

Now I don’t know the exact workings of the leasing agreements to take into account hedging, price volatility, inflation, demand etc, but the fact is simple. Leasing costs go up as vanadium prices go up.

The idea is to spread the cost over the lifetime of the VRFB and to move it from capex to opex, but just like any other ‘loan’ the loanee will pay more over time than the customer that took the hit up front and bought the electrolyte therefore retaining the residual value for himself.

[mogwhy] 05/3/2021 09:35

cordwainer & nvhltd are correct.
BMN get paid market value for any vanadium supplied to IES.
Listen to the IES interims report from 36 mins on.

[dontay] 05/3/2021 09:32

coldwainer, for starters it's rental not leasing. Its for the electrolyte element not the battery. The electrolyte accounts for between 39-40% of the cost of the battery. BMN, as the miner and one stop shop vertically integrated company, can control the price of their own V and electrolyte as required for the battery market. Any V going towards the battery market volume will increase the structural deficit in V for the steel market and therefore increase prices for that market. The lifetime of the electrolyte is c.25 years and quite possibly much longer so unlike auto rentals there is virtually zero depreciation. The length of types of agreements do not have to be for the lifetime duration of the V and can be completely structured right from the outset to suit the clients needs, that could include various options for when the agreement expires. A classic example is the recently negotiated agreement for a 10 year rental period with Pivot Power got their Oxford SuperHub, but the Hub itself is a 20 year project. Https://thekflow.blogspot.com/2020/09/flow-storage-as-service-edfs-pivot.html

[purchaseatthetop] 05/3/2021 09:14

cordwainer....nvhltd is not correct on this one. There is most likely to be a long term V price agreement between BMN as the V supplier and the lease/rental company whereby a fixed price is paid regardless of the actual price of V at that moment. Sometimes it might be above the present price, sometime below.

All IMO only and we will see.

[nvhltd] 05/3/2021 09:05

They buy the battery and can lease or buy the Vanadium electrolyte. Buy now or spread the cost.

[jc2706] 05/3/2021 09:01

Residual value.....

[cordwainer] 05/3/2021 08:51

the batteries are predominantly leased then and we eventually get them back .. although I thought V batteries had a longer life span with less degradation than typical l-ion..?

[purchaseatthetop] 05/3/2021 08:28

cordwainer....no it does not. The point of leasing the V in the batteries is that it gives a fixed rental price of the V over say 10 years. This eliminates the business risk of volatile V prices over a decade or more and makes BMN/BE a much more reliable company. It is a natural hedge.