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[tomkin] 22/6/2009 11:48

the problem with arguing with "Truthers":



"Complete lack of skepticism

Creationists and truthers will believe anything which supports their beliefs and any source which agrees with them. When a rational person hears a claim that seems unlikely he will demand a level of evidence that is proportional to the unlikelihood of the claim. One of the things that's often overlooked when considering evidence is our own experience and knowledge about how things work. If something doesn't sound right then it's usually because it contradicts your own experience or knowledge. Such claims should be challenged.

This doesn't happen among creationists and truthers, though. They want to believe something, and so they will blindly accept any claim that supports it without a shred of evidence. Then they will repeat that claim to you and insist that you accept it as well. Did you know that the towers fell at free-fall speeds? Oh, wait. They didn't. But people keep saying it. Why would they say something that not only sounds wrong, but is easily debunked? Because they don't ever bother to check. They lack the skepticism necessary to even bother challenging these assertions. "

"Debate Methods of Creationists and 9/11 Truthers"



Information Overload

Perhaps the most powerful tactic used by creationists and truthers alike is what I like to call "information overload". This is when your opponent makes so many claims that you can't possibly refute them all. Instead of presenting a few well-supported arguments with enough evidence to pass muster, they will throw a thesis at you with more bogus claims than you can count.

As an experienced debater in the given topic you might think that you can easily whip up a reply to every one of these. After all, you've heard it all before, right? Guess again. It doesn't matter how much you know about the topic, they will invariably come up with claims you have never heard before (see "(In)credible Sources" and "Unsupported claims"). Thus in order to properly refute all of these claims you have to devote considerable time to research them. Even if it only takes a few minutes of Googling to find a solid refutation of a claim, there were 20 more where that one came from. Do you have 20 minutes to respond? Probably not.

Most likely you will respond to the main points and gloss over the ones you don't think are important. After all, if you show them that their strongest points are invalid then maybe they'll reconsider their weaker ones. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. They will notice any point you failed to address, no matter how minor, and pounce on you for "not addressing" their arguments. In their eyes you have failed to refute anything because you failed to refute everything.

If you do manage to find the time to respond to every point then it's not over. While you spend time coming up with a logical response with the proper amount of supporting evidence, they don't suffer from that limitation. They'll respond with more nonsense in short time. They will revert to bad logic to dismiss your refutations, then throw out a slew of new claims that you will be expected to once again research and refute. This cycle continues indefinitely. At some point you will either stop responding to every claim (see above) or, seeing the futility of your efforts, give up entirely. At this point your opponent will declare victory.

What should you do?

I don't have any answers here other than "don't get involved". You can't win a debate against people who don't follow the rules of debate. People who don't have any respect for concepts like using credible sources, making verifiable claims, and following the rules of logic just cannot be reasoned with. All you are doing is wasting your time and probably raising your blood pressure. Let these people live in ignorant bliss and find someone intelligent to talk to.

[traderabc] 22/6/2009 11:46

Your truth is not the same as my truth.


In fact usually it is, it's in politics where the lines get blured, fundamental truths are really not debatable. For example I could say the US $ has fallen in recent years, and commodities have risen. That is 'the truth', we should have no problem agreeing with it.

[traderabc] 22/6/2009 10:18

The Verdict - Judge Napolitano on Obama’s Plan Giving Unlimited power to the Federal Reserve


Youtube
Sunday, June 21, 2009

The Federal Reserve is unconstitutional, corrupt, stealing wealth, privately held. When will we wake up and end the madness? Fight the Fed - HR1207, HR833.

[dutch alert] 21/6/2009 19:11

"All I try to 'ramp' is the truth, monty"

What you believe is not the same as the truth.
Your truth is not the same as my truth.
If you think you have the truth, start your own church.

[traderabc] 20/6/2009 20:01

My mate works in a country pub, he's been there for a few years and has got to know a few of the local dairy farmers. He tells me that they struggle to make enough money, and latley they have been building big barns placed strategically with the hope that they will get planning permission at a latter date to convert to residential use.

When an industry gets so bad for so long everyone eventually gives up hope of a recovery, when that level of pessisism is deep rooted and universal, it becomes very likley that a recovery will occur.

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I'm off to the country now, come along, it will be a laugh.

[traderabc] 20/6/2009 13:39

Back in the U.S.S.A.
by Peter Schiff, Euro Pacific Capital | June 19, 2009
Print

Harry Browne, the former Libertarian Party candidate for president, used to say: “the government is great at breaking your leg, handing you a crutch, and saying ‘You see, without me you couldn't walk.'” That maxim is clearly illustrated by the financial industry regulatory reforms proposed this week by the Obama Administration.

[traderabc] 20/6/2009 13:36

Why Most Things Do Not Matter
by J. R. Nyquist
Weekly Column Published: 06.19.2009



Imagine you are on the Titanic, and the ship is sinking after sideswiping an iceberg. Does it matter if you need a haircut? Should you be worrying about your investments? Under life-and-death circumstances, only life seems to matter. The trivia that clogs our existence is swept away by the sudden realization of what is actually at stake. In this sense, true philosophy is found on the deck of the Titanic. It leads us to discover what really matters; that is to say, why most things actually do not matter.

[traderabc] 20/6/2009 12:45

A thank you to washbrook for bringing these 2 articles up



The Money Meltdown: A Conversation with Thomas Woods Jr.
by Brian Saint-Paul
3/11/09



The economy is in free fall and we may be facing another Great Depression. In response, the government is scrambling to spend its way back to health. Is this really the best solution? Brian Saint-Paul spoke to Thomas Woods Jr., author of the New York Times bestseller, Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse.


Brian Saint-Paul: The popular media is blaming the economic collapse on the free market and "laissez-faire capitalism." And yet these same commentators seem largely ignorant of what a laissez-faire economy actually involves. So first things first: What is free market capitalism?




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Some great quotes from the 30s here, these people have been lieing to us for a very long time, believing the 'consensus view' can make you poor very quickly.



Fed Fighting to Prevent 1930's Style Financial and Economic Deflation
Stock-Markets / Stocks Bear Market
Oct 18, 2008 - 02:59 PM

By: Tim_Wood


It Still Ain't Gonna Work Plus A Quick Technical Look at Gold - As the market declined into the 2002 low we began to see more manipulation and efforts to hold the market up than ever before. In the wake of these desperately irresponsible acts, interest rates declined, the money supply expanded, banks embarked on ridiculously irresponsible lending practices and the housing bubble was born as was the commodity bubble. These acts by the Fed were a deliberate attempt to hold back the deflationary wrath of Kondratieff Winter, which is all about the purging of excess credit from the system. So, what do the geniuses in charge do? They promote more credit. Now that really makes sense doesn't it? Just as the economic cycle was trying to naturally deflate and purge itself of the credit excesses in 2001 and 2002, the brainiacs in charge stepped in and flooded the economy with more of what was ailing it. Credit.


I have said all along, in both print and in interviews, that the efforts to hold the market up during the 2003 to 2007 period would only make matters worse.

[traderabc] 19/6/2009 22:22

All I try to 'ramp' is the truth, monty.

[traderabc] 19/6/2009 13:32

Dodd: Giving the Fed More Power is like Awarding a Son a “Bigger, Faster Car Right after He Crashed the Family Station Wagon”


Washington’s Blog
Friday, June 19, 2009

The chairman of the senate banking committee - Christopher Dodd - quoted a critic of the plan to expand the Federal Reserve’s powers as being:

like awarding a son a “bigger, faster car right after he crashed the family station wagon.” He added that he hadn’t made a conclusion on the issue.

The critic is correct.

[traderabc] 19/6/2009 13:29

Ron Paul Slams Federal Reserve’s New Dictatorial Powers


Congressman tells MSNBC that the very entity responsible for the economic crisis is now more powerful than Congress



Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Friday, June 19, 2009

Responding to the Obama administration’;s new regulatory reform plan, which will officially hand the Federal Reserve complete dictatorial control over the U.S. economy, Congressman Ron Paul told MSNBC that the Fed was now more powerful than Congress.

Paul emphasized that no amount of regulation could compensate for a financial system created and controlled by the Federal Reserve that was completely unstable to begin with.

[traderabc] 19/6/2009 13:10

Wheat Crisis: The Next Black Swan? 2 comments
June 19, 2009 | about: AFK / DBA
Michael Johnston

Although it's doubtful that anyone keeps track of such things, I'd venture to guess that 'crisis' has become one of the most popular words in the American lexicon over the last two years. The prevalence of the word in newspaper headlines and everyday conversation is an indication of just how bad the past few years have been. We've seen a real estate crisis morph into a global financial crisis, a swine flu crisis, too many industry-specific crises to count, and even a crisis on the high seas. Surely now the worst is behind us, right? Many prominent scientists throughout the U.S. and Europe are afraid not, fearing that the next market-crippling development could come from a most unlikely source: wheat.

Although most outside of Africa are unfamiliar with it, Ug99, a type of fungus commonly called 'stem rust' due to its production of reddish-brown flakes on wheat plant stalks, is a serious threat to eliminate 80% of the world's most widely grown crop. The fungus, which was first discovered in eastern Africa, has now jumped to Iran, with many crop scientists predicting that it is only a matter of time before winds carry the disease to Russia, China, and the U.S. (see this chart from the LA Times depicting the spread of the fungus).

[traderabc] 19/6/2009 10:12

Casey Files:
The Gold Storage Solution: Switzerland

A BIG GOLD Special Report
From Casey
Jun 19, 2009

At Casey Research, our task is to accurately forecast trends, do it early, and help investors profit from what we've found. Without claiming infallibility, we've gotten it right more often than not, and by distinctly profitable margins.

But research to anticipate what to expect is the easy part. It's the when-to-expect-it-to-happen that's tricky, and waiting for a predicted trend change or crisis sometimes can test our confidence. The crisis we warned about years ago is now here, and its arrival has altered many of the rules for investing.

If you're reading this report, you probably followed our earlier advice and have accumulated a nice-size crisis insurance policy in the form of physical gold. Now you need to decide what to do with that stash of Midas cash. It may have been born in a corner of your sock drawer, but perhaps now it's stress-testing an attic rafter. Unlike gold ETFs and mining shares resting digitally in your brokerage account, physical gold brings with it questions of space and place: how and where to store it.

[traderabc] 18/6/2009 20:24

Throwing a BRIC Through America’s Window


Washington’s Blog
Thursday, June 18, 2009

I wrote an essay in November called “Throwing a BRIC Through America’s Windshield?” in which I predicted:

Will the BRIC countries and Japan demand a shift away from the dollar at the G-20 summit later this month?

My prediction is that at the G-20 this month, Japan, Brazil and India will drag their feet, and that China and Russia won’t turn their bark into a bite.

However, I predict that America’s economic meltdown will occur so quickly that the BRIC countries and Japan will force a change in the world reserve currency within the next year.

[traderabc] 18/6/2009 20:14

Bankster Bailouts Of 2008/9 Exceed Over 200 Years Of Major Government

"The cost of World War Two, the race to the moon, the New Deal, and the Iraq, Vietnam and Korean wars combined does not come close to the amount spent so far in just 12 months on the bailout of a handful of privately owned offshore corporations."




Combined cost of major historical events does not even come close

Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Thursday, June 18, 2009

The amount of US taxpayer money committed to bailouts over the last 12 months by far exceeds the combined cost of major historical events dating back over 200 years.

The combined amount spent, lent, consumed, borrowed, printed, guaranteed, assumed or otherwise committed to bailouts by the government from March 2008 to March 2009 amounts to some $15 TRILLION.

To emphasize how much money that is, the producers of the book Bailout Nation, put together the following graphic, which illustrates how almost every large one time expenditure of the US over the last 206 years is a drop in the ocean compared with the current level of spending.

The cost of World War Two, the race to the moon, the New Deal, and the Iraq, Vietnam and Korean wars combined does not come close to the amount spent so far in just 12 months on the bailout of a handful of privately owned offshore corporations.

[traderabc] 18/6/2009 20:11

Obama Regulatory Reform Plan Officially Establishes Banking Dictatorship In United States


Move to hand privately-owned Federal Reserve complete regulatory power over entire U.S. economy heralds new form of government

[traderabc] 18/6/2009 20:04

Strange Inconsistencies in the $134.5 Billion Bearer Bond Mystery


J.S. Kim
Seeking Alpha
Thursday, June 18, 2009

Here’s yet another huge financial story that has been virtually blacked out by the US financial media. Although on the surface, this story appears to be a non-event, if we consider some of the released facts about this case, you will understand why I consider it to be a huge story. On June 8th, the Asia News reported the following story:

“Italy’s financial police (Guardia italiana di Finanza) has seized US bonds worth US 134.5 billion from two Japanese nationals at Chiasso (40 km from Milan) on the border between Italy and Switzerland. They include 249 US Federal Reserve bonds worth US$ 500 million each, plus ten Kennedy bonds and other US government securities worth a billion dollars each. Italian authorities have not yet determined whether they are real or fake, but if they are real the attempt to take them into Switzerland would be the largest financial smuggling operation in history; if they are fake, the matter would be even more mind-boggling because the quality of the counterfeit work is such that the fake bonds are undistinguishable from the real ones.”

Here are just a few fascinating facts about this case (at least they are being reported as “facts” at this current time):

[dutch alert] 18/6/2009 11:25

We all get very hard times and we in Europe probably will be hit even harder because we are too fragmented to fight the crisis. The US will be hit hard but have the capacity to rice first from the ashes.

[traderabc] 18/6/2009 08:22

'Mark my words - it will take maybe one or two years, but they will collapse'



They may well, but I'd not like to imagine what will be happening to us in the west if it happens.

[traderabc] 18/6/2009 08:20

World Bank raises China forecast
By Michael Bristow
BBC News, Beijing



Despite the bright outlook, many migrant workers do not have jobs


The World Bank has raised its forecast for growth in China this year from 6.5% to 7.2% amid signs that the economy is doing better than expected.

Bank analysts say the government's four trillion yuan ($585bn, £358bn) stimulus package has helped the economy.

But it says the country's exports are still down, as the rest of the world struggles with the global recession.

[dutch alert] 17/6/2009 23:33

He trader seen newsnight tonight? The item on China.
The factory where one third of worlds casmir comes from.
Government orders - no layoffs - no salarycuts - no delays in salarypayments.
One of the conclusions - Chinees banks lending in a careless way
to keep it going
Mark my words - it will take maybe one or two years, but they will collapse