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[skinwalker] 14/12/2018 14:12

I said that was the point of democracy. I didn't say they were competent, honest or virtuous.
But that again is the point - you/we can vote them out at the next general election.

[jamiedodge] 14/12/2018 13:23

Ooo get you Skin..... Informed decisions..our MP's. There's a first.
Aminorexia kicking in... be careful next you'll be saying they're honest and virtuous lol

[blackgold00] 14/12/2018 13:15

you can count me in Dunder, I feel the same, I voted to remain, I didn't mind the UK's position with-in the EU as it was, being in but independent from the Euro, also knowing it was not going to be easy untangling that 50 year knot of EU integration, but if the referendum of the people (which there can be no greater authority spoken in our democracy) is not upheld and a second one is granted, then I feel that out of principle and a duty to the first referendum, that I would be inclined, nay, duty bound to vote leave.

[skinwalker] 14/12/2018 13:00

Different 'leave' fireplace.
(Will the last one to 'leave' please turn off the lights)

[skinwalker] 14/12/2018 12:59

Well DH its all meant to come under the heading of 'Democracy'.
I thought Cameron called the referendum to appease UKIP? I didn't think it was a UKIP idea?

[fireplace22] 14/12/2018 12:56

In the General election both major parties had 'leave' in each of their manifestos.

[dunderheed] 14/12/2018 12:50

Because the referendum was the most ever voted on issue (ever) wasn't it?
It was meant to be a one off generational decision and surely it was ukip that came up with this 'idea?
There really no comparison mate imho?!

As I say I am stating as probably a pro European but after we have been treated post referendum in the potential second one I may vote to leave. How many more people are there like me?

[skinwalker] 14/12/2018 12:38

Well DH - we've had a general election since that damned referendum. The Tories (who's idea the blooming thing was) lost a lot of seats and now have to depend on the DUP. Why is this less important than the 2016 referendum?

[fireplace22] 14/12/2018 12:13

I think it was Blair that promised us a vote if the UK were to be involved in any machination that brought us closer to EU integration; then I think it was the Lisbon discussion came up and the wording was succinctly changed to agreement or some such other which conveniently fell out of the nomenclature if not the deed necessary for us to vote. We'd be out of the EU now if otherwise.

[blackgold00] 14/12/2018 12:05

well there you go edgar, you learn something new every day, as I always understood the most common use and term of the word Sovereignty, to mean "the power that a country has to govern itself or another country or state"


edgar, please do elucidate and educate me.

[onedaysoonmaybe] 14/12/2018 11:36

I think someone has been believing to much of what he reads on the internet.

[edgar222] 14/12/2018 11:21

Blackgold Your ignorance of what "sovereignty" actually is remains staggering.Go and educate yourself, man.

[dunderheed] 14/12/2018 11:17

Skin I agree but NOT to subvert a referendum like that, which was voted on?
Come on if this happened in North Korea what would we be saying on the west!!

[skinwalker] 14/12/2018 11:09

DH 70274 - I think you're wrong. The essence of our democracy is that we elect politicians to make informed decisions on our behalf.

[dunderheed] 14/12/2018 10:51

I'm not sure about how soon it will be before it collapses but the (evential) bill for that, could be frightening!!

[fireplace22] 14/12/2018 10:46

grey, The EU has been in decline for years, we're better off out before it collapses. This may be our only opportunity to get out before we are totally embroiled in their mess.

[dunderheed] 14/12/2018 10:45

Greying it's not though is it?
At the end of the day the majority voted to leave hence the Tories were correct to give this opportunity to 'the people'?
How can you blame 17 mm (quite a view none Tory voting) people on the Tories?
I assume you're a remainer then?
Trying to blame the Tories for this mess is patronising and overly simplistic which invokes exactly the opposite reaction from which you are hoping to achieve?

[fireplace22] 14/12/2018 10:43

If the backstop were removed Mays agreement would pass through parliament. The backstop is not legally required and is a political tool to manipulate the UK by the EU. Get rid of the backstop and it gives us 24 months to discuss a new trade deal etc. If after 24 months we are nowhere then leave without a deal but be adequately prepared. But we need to be able to say enough is enough and we can't with the backstop.

[dunderheed] 14/12/2018 10:27

Greying ffs the country is split apart on this, not just the Tories!!
They just happened to be the govt empowered with instigating this 'people's decision'!

[greyingsurfer] 14/12/2018 10:25

What would you suggest if second ref. came back with leave as well? Will we do best of five then?

No, if a second referendum is held it will be because the situation now is very different to 2 years ago - the nature of any potential workable deal is much clearer. Whatever it comes back with would have to be the result. The country cannot allow itself to be made a farce of and ripped apart by Tory divisions any longer.

[blackgold00] 14/12/2018 10:24

"May changes her mind BG"

and keep her job at the same time? no way skin. I'm getting the scary feeling that (All) have now lost control of the eventual outcome.

[blackgold00] 14/12/2018 10:17

"The Irish Prime Minister @campaignforleo speaks on his arrival at day two of the EU summit - he says he is “very satisfied” with how things went last night. That means the backstop is firmly still in place with no time limit."

[dunderheed] 14/12/2018 10:02

I agree totally skin 're Corbyn but he has to listen to all his other 'ivory tower' mps who are remainers whilst a lot of their electorate were leavers?
I thought politicians had to represent 'their people' who bizarrely put them in power in the first place?