Work Service Share Discussion Threads

[smithie6] 14/10/2014 15:38

The value of the assets...102p.....minus unlisted stuff (not for sale at present)

Is agreeable ?

[russman] 13/10/2014 22:58

You appear to be giving Mr Marshall a headache.
What price do you want per share for all of your Western Selection Plc holding?

[russman] 13/10/2014 22:52

No for No.6 only.
Other significant "minority" shareholders decline to comment.

[smithie6] 13/10/2014 19:45

Post Number 1 (2000)

"I think the current NAV is about 25p."

That is 100p now after the 1 for 4 consolidation.
ANd recently NAV was declared as 102p.

So, NAV the same in 2014 as in 2000.

Fingers crossed that in the short term the NAV will do OK, eg. if something happens for Hartim (like an IPO).......but long term, I think the co. needs to change its strategy since the strategy with the current team implementing it, has not worked over last 14 yrs.

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One could argue that Creston was just a gravy train for Don Elgie and David Marshall. Creston shareholders have lost money while they have made quite a lot. DE made 6M over 10 yrs. Excessive. DM got around 400k over 10 yrs and it is more than 10 yrs....possibly tax free....since paid to unnamed overseas co. (perhaps in Virgin Islands)

Does DM care about Western shareholders NAV if he is getting hefty directors fees at cos. like Creston ??!

[smithie6] 13/10/2014 19:38

AIM INDEX has been and is falling hard over last few months

so

hopefully in such a climate the bod wont be

STUPID

enough to rush out and invest at HIGH prices in anything unlisted like they did in Doctors Direct

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personally, with mkts falling, and so many concerns about European and global economies....it doesnt appear to be a good moment to be investing in any new unlisted cos.....IPO mkt may dry up (investors in AIM stuff are getting poorer every day.....that does not make them want to invest in IPO stuff !!)

[smithie6] 13/10/2014 19:35

Is there a chance that something is about to happen with Hartim ?

the accounts talk about "increasing concentration"

which imo can only happen if they increase investment in one or more of the following NBI, CRE, SWL or Hartim

and the more likely one out of that lot is Hartim

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Western now has 3M semi liquid cash....+ debt facilities (it can borrow against shares held)


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Worth noting imo that the MM appears to have accepted around 20K shares over the last 4 trades....all sells....while the share price has risen....
inferring imo that either the MM expects the share price to rise more and hence is willing to hold stock...or has an order to fill....I would guess the former...


X months ago the MM would not have accepted 20k shares without offloading some...or moving the price DOWN, not up.

[smithie6] 13/10/2014 19:29

Topvest
"Well at least you take a 3-4% yield (depending on purchase price) so it's not dead money."

Worth noting imo that all the co. does is take YOUR wallet out of your pocket
pull out notes to the value of 3-4% and put them in your hand....and then put your wallet back in your pocket...

Your cash/assets is the same before and after.....just moved from one place to another.
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The yield is imo a trick....to keep shareholders quiet.

[smithie6] 13/10/2014 19:26

cut

to put forward resolutions to the AGM need 5% I think

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If they choose an investment strategy that they know performs worse than other normal strategies (Blackrock, Artemis, Liontrust) just to benefit the Marshalls then that would imo break the Company Act 2006....if so, then 5% of the votes is not needed !

although arguably breaking some rule or law is one thing.....getting someone to enforce it is another ...

so far, it seems that I am the only person on ADVFN anyway that is concerned....

[russman] 06/10/2014 23:29

I have read the Annual Report 2014. For a tinpot company it is too complicated. If this is the sum total of their strategic review then it is time for a change.
I doubt that I will be voting for No.6 (increase their fee limit)

[russman] 05/10/2014 09:23

Roughly how many WSE shares do you hold? I regard LFI/WSE as a curiosity, their modus operandi reminds me of 1970. To be fair they do listen to my suggestions but it is made clear that Mr Marshall is the chairman and I am a petty private investor. If the "leadership" were to change I may buy more; if I do not like the new strategic investments, I will sell up & move on.

[topvest] 04/10/2014 20:10

Well at least you take a 3-4% yield (depending on purchase price) so it's not dead money. There is also underlying value. Not worth buying, not worth selling in my book.

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 19:19

...Im not saying sell....and I agree that Hartim is undervalued in the accounting...

but !!

Hartim looks to be in the same position as 5 or so years ago...except for profit being up (due to closing a lease I think and similar actions, nothing too stunning as far as I can see)
turnover is about the same...which is a dissappointment imo..after 5 years

and the books dont allow a divi to be paid....

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Western has been next year next year....since 2000 when I first bought some...
and next year never seems to arrive !

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 19:15

"WSE isn't comparable with a global asset manager"

I disagree.

At the touch of a button I can buy or sell almost any listed co. anywhere in the world. I can buy American shares. Or German shares. They are all comparable ! And I would like to buy the best ones !

If one is paying the costs for investment managers to do the deciding.....then I want to pick the good ones....and past perf. charts is useful tool to show the skill or not of the inv. managers....although past perf. is not gteed to be repeated...

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 19:11

"Creston is also undervalued. X is undervalued. Y is undervalued"

however you look at it....

since 1998

Western X 1

Artemis X 4.2

Sector average GAIN 271%

sadly the rest is all blah blah blah !

[topvest] 04/10/2014 19:07

Yes, but WSE isn't comparable with a global asset manager. I also think this is a deep value play as Hartim is massively undervalued - it would be valued in private equity circles at many fold the existing net asset valuation. Finsbury Foods is a quality business that is undervalued. Creston is also undervalued.

Sanctuary and MWB had some success - the mistake they made was not getting out at a very good profit when they could have.

The only disaster in my view was Doctors Direct, which I lost money on as well.

The Marshall family have a long and successful record in creating businesses in my view. Not top quartile but certainly better than average. WSE hasn't delivered good value because of high costs and not taking profits.

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 19:04

Since april 1998

Numis Smaller Cos. Index. 343.2% GAIN

Sector Average 271%

Artemis was 100 units in 1998 at its start and 420 units now !!

X 4.2 !!

Western. Raised money at 64p in 1996/7....and share price is now 63p to sell.

X1 !!


Western X 1 , Clearly way below the sector average since 1998 of 271%

hence imo the shareholders need to force the co. to change its strategy to use the same strategy as Artemis, Blackrock et al......invest in cos. and buy and sell as desired....without having dirs. on the bods. or being limited in any way

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hxxp://www.artemis.co.uk/investor/products/artemis-uk-smaller-companies

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 18:57

BTW
Artemis manager is generally not keen on IPO investments

hxxp://www.artemis.co.uk/investor/products/artemis-uk-smaller-companies

and sees the small co. sector performing badly in coming years compared to the past few years ...since past few yrs have been so strong.....

and he is trying to be defensive...

hence
that does not paint a rosy picture for investing in IPOs or pre-IPOs as the Western bod plan

(the bod are a few months out of date perhaps....the IPO sector was busy/good in first part of 2014....imo it isnt any more....especially after Eurozone and UK mkts recent down turn

(DAX is down around 800 pts from peak, almost 10%)

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 18:50

if the Marshalls were inv. managers at any inv. co. they would have been shown the door a long time ago !!

no one would be investing in their funds...and hence their employer wouldnt want/need them or be able to pay them

to raise money at 64p in 1997 and then have the share price at the same price in 2014....
of course no one would be wanting to invest in their funds, which would have closed down...and the mngr ejected.
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btw
the price paid to invest in DOctors DIrect was INSANE
and investing in Creston and SWL has not produced a real return

I am worried that the Marshalls will do the same again
that they do NOT know how to value an unlisted co.
and are perhaps too concentrated on the return to themselves via dirs. fees.

over 400k to D.Marshall just from Creston alone....over 10 years
and then multiple for FIF, MWB etc...paid to un named overseas co.....tax free imo...
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Dirs. at Caja Madrid stole 15M euros ...using co. credit cards....and not spotted by the auditors or the banking system....

....dirs. are quite happy to seek pers. benefit..even if illegal or immoral

(such a big scandal, 30,000 million pnd bail out ! (lent from Europe I think otherwise Spain would have cracked and then the Eurozone) that the Spanish Govt. removed the investigating judge and suspended his licence !!!
in order to silence the case.......since the party of the Govt. was the mover behind the overall fraud...)

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 18:27

If the big holders in Western considered how much money they have lost by receiving X1 by holding Western shares compared with X3 by holding Artemis, or Blackrock SC or other small co . funds...

since 2005

then they would probably vote for changes

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 18:25

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If pick different funds with diff. start dates.....you get the same results....
Western perf. is TERRIBLE compared to inv. funds operating a normal inv. policy.

ie. moving between listed co. shares as they see fit....without needing to sit on the bod

imho this is proof that the Western inv. policy DOES NOT WORK
in comparison with a normal inv. policy.

and hence the legal question is created as to whether the bod are breaking the Company Act by continuing with an inv. policy when they know that it underperforms compared to the std. investment fund strategy. Especially if the strategy is being chosen just to provide financial benefit to the family of the chairman via dirs. fees at the investee companies...and insider information.

ISDX and the co. adviser have been asked to look at this point.
If needed the FCA/police might be asked to look at it.
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Also

The possible financial benefits from insider information are much higher than the dirs. fees. Insider info can be used in diff. ways......such as a related party putting 50% of their portfolio in to 1 company rather than just putting in say 5%. The buyer can do so overseas, the Ms have links to various offshore tax havens. If the buyer is ever investigated and say they just used market information, almost impossible for anyone to prove otherwise. Someone sitting on a bod could explain to another person the significance of different number and text in diff. parts of the accounts which can make a massive difference to whether the listening puts 5% of their portfolio or 50%.

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 18:22

How does Western performance ...under Marshall control....compare with the competition ?


1) Black Rock

230p in Feb 2005 and around 760p now
(Feb 2005 looks to be when the BR small co. fund started

sp has gone X3



2) Western


for the same time period Western has gone....no where !

was 63p and basically the same now !!

ie. share price is X1

Western. X1
Black Rock . X3 for the same time period.

[smithie6] 04/10/2014 18:10

btw
The Marshalls only own around 17% of Western......

40% of LFI which owns 44% of Western...

so there is no need to let them do whatever they want without some control or checking from the co. owners....the Western shareholders....

(maybe some of the other large holders in Western (or LFI !) would like their children to sit as directors at investee companies...and get the dirs. fees !!)

one son got at least 900k imo ...by being dir. at City Grp for at least 10 years....which runs Western....while you wont find any mention of this yearly payment in any Western accounts !!...intentionally hidden from Western shareholders

[topvest] 03/10/2014 20:32

I agree that their performance has been somewhat average. They have paid reasonable dividends though and are on a big discount. I wouldn't invest more in them, but am happy to hold. There are far worse investment companies around. I am hoping that they do a bit better in the future. The signs are encouraging.