Work Service Share Discussion Threads

[topvest] 01/3/2012 20:07

Markt - why don't you just sell up and get over it then?

[markt] 01/3/2012 14:02

Topvest
...the dividend story....

it is a complete red herring....a whitewash....

to make shareholders (such as yourself !, sorry) lose sight of the bad performance....and so that the board will be left alone by shareholders, to do what they want....and allow them to award share options to a son without declaring it in the resolution for the vote etc etc


Too much shady or doubtful stuff going on at LFI/WSE and investee companies imho.

LFI/WSE, Creston (excessive CEO benefits while shareholders lose money), City Group, Finsbury Food (acquisn. price, chairman selling out, high price)... operate for the benefit of shareholders or the benefit of the directors, sons, families and related parties and related parties companies operating from the same offices....?

[markt] 01/3/2012 12:40

....on the plus side....

WSE (Edward Beale) have done well with their work with Swallowfield....the boardroom fight has been difficult...but definitely looks to have been worth it
...that WSE were right

[markt] 01/3/2012 12:20

...you may want to delete some info in earlier post.....since it is info that has not been made public....
(I will then also delete this part of this post)

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...intrinsic value....time will tell....but one question is whether any of it will ever end up in the hands of you and me !....or just slide off the table over a number of years into certain other hands.....
at Creston one could argue that a large amount of money has slid off into the hands of DOn ELgie over the years....while shareholders have lost money....

return to the Marshalls in 2011 was 14% on the value of their investment in LFI/WSE.
They are doing very nicely whatever happens.....
(and that is that LFI is same NAV now as it was in 1992, 20 years ago....despite following a low risk inv. policy)

seems to me that almost everyone around the board table benefits from related party transactions with LFI/WSE....for example....the issue of warrants for WSE cost around 200k to raise 650k after costs, around 30% costs !!....handled by the company where a director of LFI was/is a founder, Loeb Aron.....and of course not declared as a related party transaction....(perhaps manages to slide past the rules....but to most people it is a related party transaction)


that is 200k of shareholder money that we no longer have !!
200k !!....imho....very dubious...extorsion !..it was a rights issue not an IPO

And what is the Chairman of a Swiss bank doing sitting on the board of company with cap. value of 6M pnds ??.....are they the bankers of the Marshall family ?...they are there to pick up work ? opening accounts for contacts of LFI/WSE and Marshall Monteagle ??...perhaps they are involved with ventures like Monteagle Virgin Islands....

[topvest] 29/2/2012 20:01

At least the dividend has been nudged-up on WSE and LFI. Pleased they haven't re-invested the property cash yet in LFI. I agree it's still the same old..., but there is some intrinsic value in LFI and WSE. When that will be realised is anyone's guess!

[markt] 29/2/2012 15:36

"wonder how much they paid for this?"

How does the song go ...

'...always be the last to know, last to know'


as a WSE shareholder...one gets used to being kept in the dark !!

----

Now they close the door again, next news, 6-7 months !!...till then probably complete silence !

[topvest] 28/2/2012 19:57

Interim results a tad disappointing albeit dividend moved up. Hartim results in H2 2011 were the main disappointment due start up costs on Australian business, a difficult H2 and an exceptional property cost. Victoria Foods acquisition looks interesting in the medium term - wonder how much they paid for this?

[topvest] 23/2/2012 20:00

Markt - that was all years ago. I invested in Doctor's Direct, but have long got over it. Move on!

[markt] 15/11/2011 19:09

BTW
the total cost to run a very small co. on Plus is 34k
and there is one company that paid its running cost last year from its investment of 131k. Rest of money it holds as cash...waiting for good opportunity.

compare with WSE which pays 46k office rent....even though it has no staff !!
and WSE total admin. cost is around 280k.
..since the Plus cost is so small, it is not Plus that is eating up the WSE money...

280k. Too high imo for a small co. on Plus.

[markt] 02/11/2011 15:11

my apologies......

(wow post 86 was really long, you're right !)

if the directors make change such as reducing the number of related party transactions etc....then the list of things to change would become shorter....and hence my posts ! ;-)

====

Coolen
you still out there ?....we need another poster on here !!
Any views on WSE ?

(oh, another -ve factor for WSE...is that historically it has high % of directors being aged over 70 years !!...puts many people off I think....)

[topvest] 01/11/2011 18:17

markt - your posts are too long. If we wanted a book, we wouldn't be reading a BB!

[topvest] 09/9/2011 20:37

Coolen - no chance of that. NAV of 84p is great value in my opinion as fair value well over a £1. You need to factor in that Hartim is very undervalued (probably by a factor of 2) and Creston is also on a very low valuation. Northbridge and Swallowfield are closer to fair value in my opinion. The dividend is relatively low because of the high % running costs. Overall, I think the 40p is about a third of the intrinsic value. Nevertheless, it's not a really attractive buy to most as not much prospect of the value being realised short term. Personally, I'm more than happy to stay holding such an undervalued asset on a 4% yield.

[coolen] 07/9/2011 19:41

A 1.5p div is a miserly return on assets of 84p.

But also responsible for the 50% discount to NAV is that WSE is deemed to be controlled.

If the directors could be tempted into selling part of their holding, could that (ironically) be a trigger for a re-rating ?

[topvest] 06/9/2011 21:09

Results out today and look pretty good. 84p NAV and 1.5p dividend. Little in the way of additional disclosure other than Hartim continues its excellent progress and has expanded in Australia + continued disquiet on Swallowfield. Overall, looks well placed but would like to see listing of Hartim as that is worth way more than the carrying value. Overall, a 50% discount and a c4% prospective yield still looks good value given the quality of their investments, all of which I think are materially undervalued.

[markt] 03/8/2011 17:37

Since the directors seem to prefer to keep the info about NAV for insiders only....

I give here my calculated value of the current NAV after the recent fall in CRE price.

81p.

and if include extra 2M due to Hartim then my calc. gives 93p.
I can't recall what P/E I assumed for Hartim, perhaps 7 or so.

[markt] 13/7/2011 13:24

je je !
....I'm hoping to last a few more decades so hopefully real value will show thru before I keel over !

===

The 'real value' in Creston may not show thru soon.....fallen 15-20% recently.

At FIF there is talk/calculations that the number of options for directors is 15-18% of the existing number of shares and also a bonus package in place.....

at CRE strange or unjust recent options transactions, 500k pounds to the CEO for no cost at all (while shares have not performed....

and concerns about the legality or morality of the WSE/LFI share schemes.....

and concerns about the internal operation of MWB (operating personal companies from the same offices, in related business)

at SWL no strange options situation. No Mr D.C.Marshall.

The common factor at all these companies ?
Mr D.C.Marshall.

Hopefully for WSE real value will show through and not real problems with internal operation and compliance with regulations.

[topvest] 12/7/2011 21:54

Markt - you are basing most of your facts on the share price of the individual companies - that doesn't necessarily tell you a great deal as most of the investments are significantly undervalued in my opinion and way below intrinsic value. I think some patience is required, albeit i do recognise that WSE shareholders are being very well tested on this score. We could all keel over before the real value shows through!!

[markt] 12/7/2011 09:40

interesting to see your views....and to get other opinions....shame that no other WSE posters...

BTW.....CRE down 20% recently as you will have seen
"a sound investment".....I beg to differ....in 2000 it was the same price....and low or no dividends between 2000 and 2011.....so I would say that so far it has been a complete waste of time. If add 3% per year due to costs and say 4% for dividend paid to WSE shareholders...then 7% year...10 years...= 70%, 70% of 100p = 70p....so to stand still the CRE share price needed to go to 170p to stay level for WSE....and it is 100p-104p today.

that is a 70p/share loss for CRE !!

I think your sums are completely wrong. You are not including the things that you need to include.

====

At the same time the CEO of CRE has got rich.
Benefits of approx. 1/2M per xear.

And higher in 2011 since has just taken hundreds of k of shares at no cost.

And Mr D.C.Marshall has made money from it as well via directors salary.
And if any Marshall vehicle made buys/sells in CRE then they could have made a lot of money from CRE. It was 20p I recall. Now 100p, X 5.
Mr D.C.Marshall made money via his private company from selling lots of shares in the company where he is CEO in around 2000. And company of Latilla Campbell invested in loan notes of MWB. That is info from just obtaining accounts for 2 years. If you obtain for other years I am 99.9% sure that more beneficial trades will be found.

And WSE/LFI do not report related party transactions...just say that there are many.

Is it to intentionally hide these transactions ??
Does the market require it ?
Are WSE/LFI accounts breaking the law ?
Intentionally ?
If so, to hide the trades from shareholders ??

Who knows.....I am not an expert....I have only dug a little and I do not know the Company Act but I dont like what I find....as can be seen from my posts.

====

At CRE the FD sold all the recent option shares he received.
So, infers that he does not think that CRE are a good investment at the moment.

====
To emphasise my point.
If CRE is 100p in 2021 will you say in 2021 that it is a sound investment.
And if CRE is 100p in 2031 will you still say it is a sound investment.

YOu see my point ?
That due to WSE costs and WSE paying a dividend and real world inflation....the CRE share price needs to go up to stay level....and over 10 years it has not.
That makes it a BAD investment over the last 10 years. Next years, we have to wait and see, but last 10 is all documented and known.

====

In terms of reviewing the investments made by WSE/LFI....I would say that the result is the NAV and share price over 10-20 years. And the performance is bad.
All the rest does not matter.

I subscribed for shares at 64p for example in 2006-2007......price now in 2011 is 44-50p

that you may think that some shares are under priced does not change my situation.....I am showing a loss....I paid 64p and if I sell now 4 or 5 years later then I lose 20p on price of 64p, approx. 33% or 1/3rd.
Disaster.

At the same time the directors make money and take 4% of the shares for no cost...and possible that Marshall family members are using apartment in London owned by LFI ....(which was rented at cost of 2% of the value while LFI paid 5% to borrow money !)

[topvest] 11/7/2011 20:15

Markt - I see the score on strategic investments a little differently:

WSE

Northbridge and Hartim - good investments and both up

Creston - a sound investment that is worth more than the current price - should be a winner in better markets

Swallowfield - neutral to slighly negative.

None of the 4 are bad and more winners than losers.

LFI

WSE - as above

MWB - has made them money in the past, but should have solded the whole stake a long time ago. Negative

Finsbury Foods - neutral - current share price is below the original 30p input price, but this is due to leverage concerns.

I do agree that the London office and admin charges through City Group look a little toppy and need reducing. The rest of the company costs are reasonable enough.

Out of all their investments, Hartim, Northbridge, Creston and Finsbury are the best and probably in that order of long term value.

[markt] 11/7/2011 10:28

.......perhaps they are very good since very cheap compared to what they have been priced at !.....but otherwise not very good imo

perhaps a bit boring to repeat for LFI/WSE

FIF, massive cash raising at 85p....price now...22p. Divide price by 4 !.
MWB. was at 300p ....now 38p Divide by 7.5
CRE. WSE paid 130-131p for some shares as part of subscription, years ago, now 108p
SWL. small increase after X years, is it 5 years....

NBI has done very well

so out of 5 strategic listed investments.....1 is doing well at the moment, at the moment the other 4 are non-performers (ie. 80%).
Not a record that gives any confidence in the investment strategy imho.
(nor that massive cash raising in 1995/96 at 56p for WSE....and share price now in 2011 is 43-49p....lower than the investment price in 1995/6.....the word incompetence springs to mind.....or maybe some of the people involved are too busy making big profits at their own businesses run from the same address....and maybe the accounts do not disclose the value of related party transactions (as appears to be required by law since all other company accounts ive seen list the value of R.P. transactions) since perhaps they have something to hide ).

and is WSE being bled ...to subsidise the private companies that some of the directors or related parties operate from the same address....
over 40k office costs to WSE....but WSE has no staff !!...day to day work is contracted ...for which pay 90k....
total cost for the offices is around this same 40k number. City Grp staff, around 10. So, is 0 staff paying the costs so that co. with 10 staff does not have to ??

Many strange things imo....solution imho is a distribution of assetts pro rata (and unlisted assetts to be held by WSE Ltd, unlisted, on a spectator basis) or new directors/management....and a new investment strategy since last 10-15 years shows that current one does not produce results....but does produce benefits for Mr D.C.Marshall

and vital imo that separate the board from the investment manager.....as done at most investment funds, so that the board can change the inv. mgr if fund does not perform or charges too much or see a better manager.....

with Marshalls everywhere too easy to lose money ....to high costs....4% shares benefit (when performance is bad)....

One big negative is that WSE/LFI do NOT sell shares when they are their peak....or when they are falling.....because imo there is personal benefit to the WSE/LFI chairman by staying invested ie. directors pay and share tips from other directors (eg. from Mr P.Gyllenhammer perhaps)

I note that there are some related party private investment companies operating from the same address
London Finance and Investments Corporation Ltd
Registered Offices Investments Ltd
Fullers Investments....now changed its name...Buchanan Trading perhaps

How much gain do the players at City Road offices make from gains from WSE/LFI shares and how much gain from operating these investment companies ??

if one were to investment a large amount in Creston or other companies at the right time then you could make lots of money from it over the years even if the overall return for shareholders is zero. Just need to buy and sell at the right time. If you could discuss public information about a company with a director at that company over lunch or whatever, more than once, then you would have a much better chance of making money, by investing more than you would otherwise....and/or by assistance with timing.

If the answer is, from the investment companies, then it infers that WSE/LFI shareholders are forgotten....perhaps just a side show to pay the fixed wages and office costs, which is a high amount, City of London...