Ulster Bk.11.75 Discussion Threads

[cerrito] 05/9/2017 21:33

depends on the yield one gets(without all the bother of the withholding tax) from NWBD, LLPC which have better liquidity although would be subject to CGT- not that I would have thought CGT will be an issue given where long term rates are

[cerrito] 04/9/2017 20:56

Well done to those who are holders here: I sold out about 4 years ago as I was (wrongly as it turned out) concerned about rising long term interest rates and did not want to get caught in an iliquid bond and also because I needed money for other things.
This must be a pain for the RBS group- not only because of the high coupon but also administratively and surprised the buy back has not happened before and they can afford to be generous.

[holts] 04/9/2017 20:47

Opportunistic tender

[cerrito] 06/5/2011 09:40

See that Q1 2011 Ulster Bank losses after impairment were £377m compared to £137m in Q1 2010.
I guess with all the Irish Banks flat on their backs there is an opportunity to scoop up good business.
Nothing has come up which would suggest that RBS would allow FAP subordinated loans go under but still anticipating some buy back whenever RBS gets round to it.

[cerrito] 19/11/2010 13:03

understand why you have done what you have done p@
at this stage will not be following you;for RBS this is such a small deal that they will not want to rock the markets in such a sensitive time by stopping interest payments
still unclear why it was not caught up in the two year EU imposed moratorium on payments of this class of debt.
continue to think we will be offered a buy back and/or swap which will be reasonably but not very attractive as and when RBS get round to focusing on this..I suppose the logical extension of this is that given the wide spread and the 1% purchase tax there may be limited appetite for buying it.

[p@] 11/11/2010 10:26

Have just sold mine today,what with me paying Irish tax and the housing market there,I will miss the Divi though.Good luck to you all.P@

[cerrito] 17/9/2010 22:10

Good to see they have moved up ever so slightly from the 100/110 they have been since end of April...even though most Bank fixed income paper has roared ahead.

[woodenman] 17/9/2010 16:43

Just a heads-up - got my confirmation of tax exempt status from Irish Revenue today. I'm now exempt from 1/1/10 to 31/12/14 subject to review.

[p@] 29/8/2010 16:14

When they were taken over they sent me a form saying I had to take these (that's the way I read it).Iwonder if I would have been better off with the BOI.I'll have a look.

[woodenman] 28/8/2010 17:29

way before my time - I only bought into them as First Active post-crash. Suprised they moved them to Ireland, as I thought the tax jurisdiction was based on where the income was derived.

Thought all B&W went to Bank of Ireland anyway (hence the BOI 13.675) and its UK tax treatment

[p@] 28/8/2010 17:21

I don't know about you but when I bought them they were Bristol and West B.S.ie.English

[woodenman] 28/8/2010 16:15

Do you mean because of it now being NI (Ulster) rather than the Republic? To be honest I'd have no idea, but for the size of issue I cannot believe it would be worth the hassle for them to re-list it. I'd imagine there'd be a significant number of RoI investors that would be similarly inconvenienced if they were to re-domicile the income.

[p@] 27/8/2010 17:43

Sorry woody not sent mine yet and I hold the cert.,any idea if there is any chance this will revert back to HMRC in the near future?

[woodenman] 27/8/2010 17:14

After waiting an age of HMR&C to stamp my UK taxpayer status form I've finally been able to send off the witholding tax form to Ireland revenue. Has anyone else had any luck with this yet? In particular those whose situations are complicated due to their holdings being in nominee form?

[cerrito] 09/8/2010 11:29

While I am now pretty comfortable that RBS will not default on FAP, did spend a few minutes going through the RBS interims.
As always the nearest level of detail you get refers to Ulster Bank rather than our obligor Ulster Bank Ireland.
Page 51 of the acrobat download-out of 393 has the main commentary, more info on pages 104 and 115. After all the provisions the balance sheet of at least the main Ulster Bank must be pretty horrible.
In the appendix says that Ulster bank withdrawing from early stage property lending so this will now be a non core activity but focusing on residential mortgages which will now be a core activity.
Read the appendix which concentrated on businesses to be sold and saw nothing which suggests they are selling Ulster Bank Ireland...and indeed would not expect this as this is EEC driven and in the Republic Ulster bank is I assume a small player.

[cerrito] 14/7/2010 17:37

Been having a look at the July 1 2010 prospectus for an EMTN issue of up to E10,000,000,000(yes I had to check the zeros).
You can get this on


The issuer is the new FAP-Ulster Bank Ireland Ltd and as you would expect there is no gtee or indeed comfort letter from other parts of the RBS group.
Prospectus says the notes had been rated but left blank the rating.
Does not have financial statements, but the 2008 and 2009 financials were apparently an attachment.
Told me what I think I knew namely that did not go into the Irish Government's ELG scheme but rather the UK Asset Protection scheme.
Risk factors went on about there will be more writedowns and difficulties in getting retail deposits.

Reading the Risk Factors section seems implicit that the bank will continue to receive support from RBSG, although of course the question for FAP holders is if this support will extend to the subordinated debt holders.
One assumes that given the very small amount of FAP subordinated debt in the context of the RBSG pragmatically they are not going to open the pandora's box of allowing the subordinated debt holders to loose out.
Furthermore the fact that this EMTN is being issued does give us some confidence that the Group is giving attention to the travails of this bank.

[cerrito] 15/6/2010 21:42

Thanks Woodenman for all the research you are doing on the Tax Treatment and uncovering this Irish tax reclaim form.
I am going into discussions with my broker on this; ..I first bought them for my SIPP but then appreciated that I lost the 20% interest withheld so transferred them to my regular tax paying and used the tax withheld to offset her UK taxes.
In the meantime the price increase over the last 10 months has run out of steam which is somewhat surprising given that it has been derisked both by its merger with Ulster Bank ROI and fact that they continue to pay interest.

[woodenman] 15/6/2010 20:23

Yup I know, but it was only merged with Ulster bank recently and until then had been registered in the Republic of Ireland. From our perspective no new prospectus has been issued, so it should have the same rules - it still has the ROI SEDOL code (starting with IE).

[p@] 15/6/2010 19:26

Woody this is now called Ulster bank,Ulster is I think in Northern Ireland.

[woodenman] 15/6/2010 17:12

Well that's what I'm trying to do, albeit mine are in an ISA. We definitely have a double-taxation agreement with Ireland, though this should in theory be used to prevent both UK and IE governments taxing the same income rather than avoiding tax altogether.

The prospectus (can be found at does state

'Payment of principal and interest in respect of the Notes may be paid without deduction
for or on account of United Kingdom tax.'

Therefore there may be a possibility for tax exemption for bonds held outside an ISA too, though I'm not sure of the reason why this issue is a special case.

Unfortunately they give you a rebate as a euro cheque, which will have costs when it comes to cashing it in, but hopefully the form should also prevent tax being deducted in future. I've e-mailed Irish inland revenue enquiring how to handle nominee accounts, but no reply yet.

[p@] 15/6/2010 06:16

Woody can I claim back the tax,living in England? TIA.

[woodenman] 13/6/2010 18:22

Thanks, I got the interest in the end, but with tax deducted, hence finding the form!

[p@] 12/6/2010 22:33

woody-my last divi slip is dated 11/5/10.