Phoenix Share Discussion Threads

[hyden] 19/12/2017 20:37

Now that is interesting Lord Gnome. PHNX have always traded at a wide discount to EV so it wouldn't surprise me at all. FLG were acquired by AV. a while back and I recall bid rumours about a tie up between FLG and PHNX. Furthermore, FLG were part of the Resolution group of companies and Resolution formerly owned a large part of the current PHNX book, which was acquired by Pearl and then becoming PHNX. Interesting.

The problem for me is that I hold both and the combined entity would be just over 10% of my portfolio which is way too high for my liking.

[lord gnome] 19/12/2017 20:25

Interesting to see that holdings notification from Aviva after close tonight. Mostly nominee holdings, I know, but I have been speculating on a possible bid from PHNX from our friends in Norwich. It could make a good fit and Aviva are rumoured to be interested in closed book work. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[lauders] 19/12/2017 01:12

That's what I am here for too pj fozzie. Income is the main motive but capital gains in a healthy share price would not be turned away either ;-) Perhaps we will get some news in the early year about another acquisition? The BOD have said they are on the look out for any opportunities. The June 2018 change of registration will also help in a big way?

[pj fozzie] 18/12/2017 15:50

> Merry Christmas all hope this rockets next year

I'm happy if they just continue to pay regular dividends, increasing annually. That would be just lovely :-)

Cheers,
PJ

[stevenrevell] 17/12/2017 09:14

Merry Christmas all hope this rockets next year

[grahamburn] 03/12/2017 15:26

From their recent presentation it looks like Aviva are moving into acquiring closed funds as well.

Healthy competition for Phoenix.... or not, as the case may be.

[lauders] 02/12/2017 01:01

Probably not a high percentage fenners66!

More from PHNX:

Danny Dowd, Head of Retirement Propositions for Phoenix Life continues: “Offering customers the option of taking a one-off lump sum is a win-win situation. It offers customers a greater degree of control, but also enables us to free up resources that go into administrating small annuities.

I can see how this would free-up resources. Hope those considering it get some good advice though.

[hyden] 12/11/2017 17:31

PHNX no longer manage the funds Fenners, they sold the asset management business, Ignis Asset Management, a while ago so they need not worry about the loss of annual management fees. This aside, I would suggest the market focus is very much on the release of capital so this is potentially good news if a lot of policyholders go for it. :-)

And yes, you are right that some of these policies will offer guaranteed annuity rates in high single digits (or even low double digits) and thus are very valuable in current times. In my opinion policyholders are mad to sacrifice these benefits but the prospect of cash now is often very persuasive for some.

[fenners66] 11/11/2017 21:39

Thanks Hyden.
If these funds carry guaranteed returns which were written into the contracts in the 1980's I have read they could promise mid teens annuities ( if this is the same we are talking about).

If they bought these funds with associated provisions set aside to cover these returns and then end up not making the payouts then I can well believe that would release some capital.

You can imagine a defined contribution fund so you know the transfer value - but with a guaranteed annuity rate at the end - if you offload the fund without the guarantee - in return for the policy holder cashing in years early then there will be a tidy reserve released.

The downside is presumably reduced funds under management and reduced annual management fees.

[hyden] 11/11/2017 01:00

Edit: On second thoughts, by policyholders giving up entitlement to guaranteed returns, it will allow PHNX to release capital* from the life funds (otherwise required for regulatory purposes such as Solvency II, etc.) which benefits shareholders because it means more money is available for acquisitions and / or dividends. :-)

* This isn't necessarily free money by the way, it simply means that money will be released from the life funds earlier than would otherwise likely be the case.

[hyden] 11/11/2017 00:54

MVR stands for Market Value Adjustment, basically a penalty which applies to with-profits funds* on early encashment. PHNX are offering to waive this penalty which is potentially attractive to certain policyholders who would like to take advantage of the fairly recent change in the law regarding pensions (pensions freedoms).

The NPL fund is simply the name of a with-profits fund* managed by Phoenix. I would suggest (but do not know for certain) that NP stands for National Provident and the 'L' stands for Life or Limited, simply one of the many companies owned by PHNX

* A with-profits policy is basically a policy which comes with certain guarantees at specific points in time, typically retirement (in the case of pensions) or maturity (in the case of investment-based life policies such as endowments or whole of life policies). These types of policy were heavily marketed by insurers in the 80's and 90's but fell out of favour in the 00's following the bursting of the .Com bubble and the Equitable Life debacle. The guarantees proved very expensive following the market falls and indeed ultimately brought Equitable Life to its knees.

You might ask why would PHNX want to waive the penalty, what's in it for them? Well, if PHNX were to offer this facility to all policyholders then I would have said that With-Profits fund in run-off are expensive to manage as the costs are largely fixed and will not diminish as the book runs down. This is very unattractive to PHNX, given its stated ambition is to acquire and manage funds in run-off. It needs to do this efficiently in order to turn a profit.

However, because PHNX are only offering this facility to older policyholders then my rationale falls flat on its face so, instead, I suggest that this course of action is possibly influenced by the regulator's review of unfair / onerous terms on life polices and PHNX might be taking pro-active action ahead of regulatory censure.

[fenners66] 10/11/2017 22:49

"Phoenix Life is mailing all customers in the pilot, outlining in plain English"

Pity they cannot write the article in plain English

What is MVR ?
What is NPL fund?

[lauders] 10/11/2017 11:12

When Phoenix customers first took out their pension, it was common to stop work and retire at age 60 or 65. However, the introduction of pensions freedoms have provided customers with more options from age 55.

The customers in this pilot currently have an MVR levied on their policy which means if they withdraw funds before their selected retirement date (typically age 60 or 65), the value of their fund will be reduced to reflect the actual value of the units they have invested.

This pilot scheme is being offered to 1,000 customers in the Phoenix NPL fund, and gives customers a choice – to remain with the with-profits fund and continue to benefit from the guaranteed annual returns or switch the money to a unit linked fund MVR-free which offers greater flexibility should they wish to access funds before their selected retirement date.

More choice for some customers.

[arf dysg] 19/10/2017 09:37

But there's no F in HMRC...

"Oh, I WISH there were no effing HMRC"


The F stands for "bless them".

A rugby club now, does that mean they like to throw their weight around?

[jonwig] 18/10/2017 18:21

Arf - me too, still. HMRC a rugby club?

[arf dysg] 18/10/2017 16:16

Skinny, now I can see the carton. Aha! I get it now, oh yes.

Shouldn't it be spelled "HMFRC" ?

[my retirement fund] 17/10/2017 15:41

I cancelled my subscription a few years ago. No intention to ever subscribe again. Presently living of student loans. Expect to take my tax free pension in a few years at 55 below the repayment limit. If they come up with some way of unsubscribing me then I'll simply drink myself to death.

[arf dysg] 17/10/2017 09:22

Skinny, I don't get it.

[sogoesit] 13/10/2017 16:27

Lol!
Good weekend all!

[stonesfan] 13/10/2017 16:25

Nice one Skinny

[sogoesit] 13/10/2017 16:18

True, on a point of law, Lord Gnome, what happens on decease... does everything go into an Estate managed by the executor?
I guess then, in time, the Executor resolves any issues including, hopefully, whether or not one is actually dead?
HMRC, of course, have claims on the Estate too.

Or can someone be "bureaucratically dead" (while still alive) and the will/estate process not be triggered (with no death certificate)?

[lord gnome] 13/10/2017 16:11

It's no good getting a letter from your pension company that says you're dead - they will stop paying your pension. ;-(