Financial Payment Systems Share Discussion Threads

[hugepants] 17/1/2009 14:45

LS
The information Ive had from FPS is they are considering investing the free cash they have available. They are looking at some deals to take advantage of the collapse in valuations. So there may not be a cash return this month. There is approx 0.9p per share still in China. They say this is secure but its taking longer than they thought getting it out.

[treacle28] 26/9/2008 19:43

Matched bargain facility established and need to contact Mr FitzSimmons to buy and sell. Might try to see if anyone is looking to sell at around 0.50p.
Not long now, wait another 3 months for around 1.00-1.25p for our shares imo.

[lord santafe] 08/9/2008 19:08

It is likely to be around 0.75-1.25p plus, payout in Januray 2009 if nothing happens.

See the FPS website for details.

If redundancys etc are more than expected then this figure could be less, IMHO.

[murthymrk] 19/8/2008 14:44

Friends,

I am novice to share trading. I bought FPS shares in February. Now they were suspended on AIM. Does this mean I lost money??? or is there any chances of recovering once the suspension lifted??? Please educate me.

Thanks
rk

[8trader] 23/7/2008 18:52

LOL !

How does that work then ?

[lord santafe] 23/7/2008 18:24

Well since you have only tryed to give me helpful detailed advise in the past on here, I have only partly filtered you. I do un-filter you to just read your replys, and anything that I see you post on the threads.

[tiredoldbroker] 23/7/2008 15:41

I think that's what's known as ducking the question.

[lord santafe] 23/7/2008 14:09

tiredoldbroker - 22 Jul'08 - 16:38 - 860 of 860


I am only a share advisor now, and I do not actually buy any shares myself.
Sorry that due to that I am not the only one using this ID now, I have to filter you.

[tiredoldbroker] 22/7/2008 16:38

But 'Lord' Santafe, isn't it actually the case that you've been made bankrupt because of the losses you built up, trading shares on credit, which you couldn't pay for when they went down in price ?

Also how typically bizarre that you describe GTL as 'safe' over the last ten years, when the fact is the shares have collapsed in value over that period ! Maybe you couldn't read the chart for it ? You're not trying to buy shares on credit again are you ?

[lord santafe] 22/7/2008 12:37

8Trader,

I dont think so somehow, since I know how to read a chart a lot better than most. My main stockwatch page always has shares doubling or more on. Also I posted on the GTL thread yesterday to say I wish I had trading funds as I would of bought them. Giving how safe a share GTL is based over the last ten years, if I was trading I would of had up to £10,000 worth for just 21.6p. Today they are 24p already to sell and rising.

Secondaly I would of bought nearly any penny share that collapses over 80%, that does not issue a delisting notice for the bounce, and there has been many of them rise silly amounts lately.

[hugepants] 21/7/2008 19:35

TOB
They state cash will be returned by Jan 2009 if no deal.

Im not ignoring anything. The "the uncertainty inherent in Chinese litigation" refers directly to the 2.5 million rembimbi (£187 grand) that they'e already written orf but are considering chasing. Also these accounts were released mid July so anything material that has occurred since decemeber 2007 would surely have been announced. Theyve already supplied us with estimated cash outflow till end December 2008. And theyve listed a whole series of post balance sheet events. But there no mention anywhere of the extra £650 grand write-offs that you have concocted.

[tiredoldbroker] 21/7/2008 16:33

HP, I've no reason to WANT to see FPS announce more write-offs; but 30 years as an investor and former stockbroker tells me to look on the cautious side and to ask what the risks are. I've listed them all above, but when you say there are no possible future liabilities or write-offs mentioned, you're ignoring p5 "contemplating issuing proceedings" and "the uncertainty inherent in Chinese litigation", assuming the China cash can be extracted at no cost, and ignoring the trade creditors shown in the b/sheet. You're also ignoring the gap between the stated Renminbi deposits at 31.12 and the best estimate of realisable cash now.

Ther must be some reason why Mr Ong got chucked off the board when he did; this, and his subsequent coup against the other directors has never been satisfactorily explained. Even the company secretary quit, and while it doesn't prove anything, it all suggests that it is a (l)ong way from anyone claiming that this has been a successful investment.

Maybe you're guessing/hoping that there is no more bad news to come out and that nothing further goes wrong. Maybe you'll even be proved right. But until then, it isn't a success, and you can't cash it in.

[8trader] 21/7/2008 15:52

Stephen.

Basically i listening to both posters views and both have quite
a bit knowledge of the subject.

And then there's you and chancer who basically dont have the first
clue when it comes to investing...no offence intended but you still
post a load of rubbish on advfn.

One should never assume a company with a bad track record will not
have more surprises in store, if somebody offered me half the cash
amount they claim they have i would gladly take it now rather than
risk holding for more.

[hugepants] 21/7/2008 14:47

TOB
Yes correct in assuming Im more or less taking cash minus creditors and subtracting cash burn to get a cash estimate as of end of this year. Around 1.2p. But these accounts are already full of provisions and write-offs so I thought that reasonable. There are no other future liabilites or possible write-offs mentioned. And I know cash outflow can be a lot different from the net loss. But FPS dont have any other assets to write down, its all cash. So IMO you are simply guessing (or should that be hoping?) there are considerable further write-downs to come.

[tiredoldbroker] 21/7/2008 13:05

HP, I'm not saying the accounts are a work of fiction, I'm using numbers drawn from them and statements contained in them. But like any accounts, they are a snapshot as at the date assigned to them, and the outlook 6 or 7 months down the line has to be deduced from them, especially when it's a company like FPS which has shut its operations and still has problems to overcome. Also, there can be two or more statements which have to be weighed one against the other.

For example, on the question of cash on deposit, note 16 on p42 says they had £714,605 on deposit in Renminbi on 31.12; but note 11 on p39 gives the 'recoverable' from JSEPS at £407,920. Can you explainthat ?

You might say the difference is due to writing off trading losses until the date the JV ceased trading; or you might hope the difference is accounts in the name of SCI; but you'd be guessing and there is nothing in the accounts to support the more optimistic assumption. Likewise, there's nothing in the accounts to explain where the difference between £1,294,350 on p42 and £1,011,851 in Barclays, Jersey on p6 might be, or whether it is recoverable.

Also, the write off of £187K that we've kicked about is an asset which was 'receivable' at 31.12.06, but which was written off by 31.12.07, and I'd make an educated guess that the point where it shows is on p17, in the balance sheet: at 31.12.06 they had trade & other receivables of £222K which by 31.12.07 had shrunk to £16K.

I suspect that you may be looking at the top line for assets, and just knocking off the cash outflow; whereas what I'm trying to get across is that a company can have balance sheet write-offs where they accept that an asset in the balance sheet is no longer worth what it was stated at, so they write it off as a non-cash item. That's happened already with the JV valuation, but I think there's more to come.

For example, the balance sheet as at 31.12.07 on p17 gives net assets after stripping out minorities of £1.6m, down from £3.4m the year before; but the consolidated cash flow statement on p19 shows a cash outflow of just £1.1m; becuse cash outflow doesn't reflect every asset impairment. Likewise, I think the current year will show cash outflow but also impairments; and it is only after deducting both of those items that you'll get to the residual value shareholders hope to have distributed to them; and so I think the underlying value is much lower than you and Cancer6 have been suggesting - and that you've been stripped of the little bits of protection you'd have had in a quoted company.

[hugepants] 21/7/2008 11:57

TOB

You are basically saying these audited accounts are a work in fiction in that they definetly DO NOT present a fair and proper account of the company's finances.

Incidentally I now see why you are low-balling the cash figure as compared to my calcs. The accounts state £1.294M in cash (denominated in UK pounds) at end Decemeber 2007 (see note 16). Yet you are using the £1M that is stated as being the in the Jersey bank account. Can you explain that?

[lord santafe] 21/7/2008 11:47

8Trader,
It is not good work from TOB since he should of given up trying to proove Hugepants wrong who is already a multi millionare from being able to read the fundamentals properly, but I do often agree with your points of view.

Just hope that Avanti Screen gets what it deserves, but I do wish Chancer6 best of luck on WYT, since he deserves a reward for getting me into FPS.

[8trader] 21/7/2008 10:46

Keep up the good work TOB.

You sure make chancer look the idiot he/she is, i've never seen a
poster squirm so much over another poster that is apparently filtered.

[tiredoldbroker] 21/7/2008 10:38

HugePants, we all agree that they've written off the loan made to their JV partner and the equity their JV partner was meant to have put into the JV but never stumped up. However, the £187,000 write off is not, as you say above, because their JV partner won't pay their share of the windup costs.

The FPS balance sheet would incorporate the book value of the assets of the JV subsidiary: the capital the JV partner was meant to contribute would have been stated as one of those assets. The asset won't now ever materialise, so it has been written off. But nothing to do with windup costs, simply an asset they hoped they'd have which has evaporated.

Also, what the company itself says (p5 of the accounts) is that the JV doesn't actually have a valid business licence, and they can't formally wind up the JV until it has a valid business licence. So the JV partner is in a position to engage in - let's call it 'whitemail' - i.e. it has leverage which it can exert, to force FPS to a compromise, before FPS can get any money back from winding up the JV.

The alternative is to start legal proceedings and I stick with my point, a tiny Channel Islands company is on weak ground trying to sue a 50% Chinese govt owned business in the Chinese courts. It isn't a level playing field, and I think it's realistic to assume this will cost FPS money. Note 11 to the accounts (p39) states the recoverable amount at 31.12.07 at £407,920 and I think you have to write off a big part of this, either in a compromise or in legal costs. Using a contractual/legal stumbling block to sting a European company isn't seen as corruption in China, you get the death penalty for robbing other Chinese, not for walloping a foreign company.

Put it another way - are you assuming that getting this £400K out of China is as simple as writing a cheque, or are you allowing for any costs in getting it ?

The balance sheet (p17) also shows a 'creditors' item of Trade & other payables of £299,432; I'm perhaps generously assuming that the SCI settlement saves £100,000 of this, but it still leaves creditors of £200,000 to be met. Also, the HK dollar and Singapore dollar cash is only shown in the accounts (p42) as £1,909 and £51,538 respectively, not enough to make a material difference here. But let's add in that, and a realistic sum for interest on the £1m in Jersey (again, the accounts say on p42 at rates from 0.007% to 4.75%, don't think you can go for the top rate necessarily).

The only assets you might bank on are the £1m in Jersey and ther £0.4m in China; add in another £100K for HK, Singapore and interest. Say £1.5m. But you do then have to deduct the £730,000 running costs, the £200,000 trade creditors, and surely something for settling the China problem, So maybe they'll be left with £600,000 in total, maybe only £400,000 or less if China gets nasty. And the company is no longer subject to even Stock Exchange rules; I still don't see that the shareholders are yet within sight of getting a worthwhile payout.

[hugepants] 20/7/2008 09:35

TOB

I think youve lost the plot.

Cash outflow for 2008 stated at £730,000 (before interest income). Say £0.65M after interest added on. This estimate obviously made just before these accounts were released ie. mid July.

You seem to know different though and suggest FPS will have to write off another £650,000. Where does this extra 650,000 come from?

The minority interest has been accounted for under creditors (and see note 32c).
Theyve already written off £187,000 to allow for their JV (15% only) partner
not paying their part of windup costs. FPS MAY take legal action to reclaim this £187,000 but is it worth it?

You can (if you want) assume the Chinese authorities simply steal the 400 grand but you can get the death penalty in China for corruption! Wont happen. Nobody would invest in China.

Not sure how you can write off another 250 grand over and above that.
Has the Singapore and Hong Kong cash been knicked as well?