Angle Share Discussion Threads

[bones698] 30/9/2024 18:05

Unfortunately no mention of progress or any such deal on that front in the results ..

[gooosed] 30/9/2024 14:17

Solaris Healthcare appear to have reached the 1m annual patient milestone with the addition of Keystone Urology.

As has been mentioned before - a very modest 3-5% patient uptake of Angles Parsortix & consumables etc. would be a considerable addition to annual revenues.

[bagpuss67] 28/9/2024 20:08

Without an assay? OK fair enough. I guess we will hear about the outcome of those immediate applications in the next trading update and year end results :)

[5oletrader] 28/9/2024 16:52

@Bagpass ... has IMMEDIATE APPLICABILITY to ANGLE's pharma services customers and translational researchers using the Parsortix system ...https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/AGL/exclusive-agreement-for-dna-ngs-panel/16677437-'Pharma' services customers =• Eisai• AstraZeneca • Recursion • ?Artios etc+Translational Researchers 'using' the Parsortix system =• 260 Parsortix Install Base-• Last time I checked - IMMEDIATELY is now?-I totally get people are p*@ed & dislike my posts - but this is a fact based arguement.If it 'benefits' you or anyone with research then GL.

[bagpuss67] 28/9/2024 10:23

Thanks SoleTrader

You say "There is NOTHING stopping AGL from IMMEDIATELY introducing the dual analysis in research settings or early clinical studies"

Even they say.. "Molecular assay for dual analysis of CTCs and ctDNA from a single blood sample to be launched within six months"

[5oletrader] 28/9/2024 10:09

@Bagpuss, I will try to answer your 'last' question 'first':"When do you actually think customers will routinely be paying money for combined CTC/ctDNA tests from Angle using NuProbe?"A - If you are referring to FULL SCALE commercial clinical adoption - I will not BS you and ballpark 3-5yrs! -I can pretty much guarantee what your/others initial 'emotional' response to that answer is - BUT - I would negate entertaining those emotions and think for a moment.-There is NOTHING stopping AGL from IMMEDIATELY introducing the dual analysis in research settings or early clinical studies.I feel you/others 'might' be overlooking how AGLs EISAI, ASTRAZENECA & RECURSION partnerships 'could' provide an IMMEDIATE PATHWAY for deploying the NuProbe NGS panel in a clinical trials setting.• WHY is this is significant? Because clinical trials and research projects are often the FIRST STEP toward commercialisation - helping build the evidence base and credibility needed for BROADER adoption.• AGL can LEVERAGE these research opportunities to demonstrate the value of the NuProbe NGS panel before it's available for routine CLINICAL use (3-5yr TF). Shrewd business getting paid to build evidence and credibility?-HERE & NOW:Short-term using your 12-18month time frame I 'DO' see opportunity.That's why I used the EISAI example for context - AGL using their position to leverage deal values.I, like you have to do my own research and ballpark opportunities - so - I'll throw a 'thesis' out there 'AND' I will keep the numbers conservative:EISAIASTRAZENECARECURSION • 50 patient cohort each• 3 x time points in 12 month period• BASE LINE - 450 TOTAL blood samples neededCrunching some numbers:• 450 x $2.5k blood samples = £1.1M• 450 x $3.5k NuProbe NGS analysis = £1.5M• TOTAL Conservative estimate = £2.7MVARIABLES:Other factors need to be considered:• What 'if' these clinical studies become 100 patients cohorts? Value rises to £5.4M• What 'if' AGL are utilised in three (3) 'separate' clinical studies per Pharma Deal using 50 patient cohorts? Value rises to £8.1M• What 'if' AGL are utilised in three (3) 'separate' clinical studies per Pharma Deal using 100 patient cohorts? Value rises to £16.2M-USAGE:I mentioned this before but emotions are running too high for some to process. Re the NuProbe NGS panel we need to consider volume usage etc:• SMALL research groups or clinical labs could use between 20 to 50 panels per year.• LARGER institutions or those involved in multiple clinical trials may USE HUNDREDS of panels annually.• CLINICAL STUDIES focusing on personalised medicine (tumor tracking/drug resistance monitoring) will involve MORE frequent testing - POTENTIALLY requiring MULTIPLE panels PER patient PER year.-OTHER SHORT TERM CONSIDERATIONS:AGL have 260 Parsortix machines deployed at various locations. 'Using' the above 'usage volumes' if we assume these 260 PARSORTIX machines are being utilised by SMALL research groups then:1) - We KNOW the NuProbe Panel can be deployed immediately in this setting2) - It's NOT unreasonable to expect their usage to be between 20-50 panels EACH per year (median 35 panels)Number crunch that:• 260 locations x 35 panels each @ $3.5k per panel = £31.8M-CONCLUSION ON NUMBERS:I'm talking shorter term 'potential' here - but I 'CAN' find a sliding scale of a probable:• £35M to £50M of research sale opportunities using NO MORE than the CURRENT deployment of Parsortix machines and the CURRENT pharma partnerships - excluding EVERYTHING ELSE! (Ponder that)-EVIDENCE:It should be noted from the RNS:"NuProbe will transfer manufacture of the NGS panel to a LARGER-SCALE manufacturing site"• Why?"The NGS panel enables highly sensitive and specific high throughput gene analysis and has IMMEDIATE applicability to AGLs PHARMA services customers and TRANSLATIONAL RESEARCHERS 'using' the Parsortix system"• Does that back up my thesis above?"In the longer-term provide clinicians with the potential for continual optimisation of personalised cancer treatment plans"• Does this reaffirm the goal of full scale clinical adoption?-You express frustration in your post - very understandable and shared emotion!It's fine if 'you' and 'others' disapprove of my posts but I do 'try' to express my views based on AGL facts & sector related info.I will happily engage in constructive conversation here - unfortunately tho, this is nonexistent most of the time.-I hope the above is helpful for your own research/risk assessment etcGL

[bagpuss67] 28/9/2024 06:09

Thanks I see that more clearly.. However you say

"With AGLs introduction of the NuProbe NGS panel"

But it hasnt been "introduced" has it? There has been a pilot study. Thats always the thing with each change of direction (or charitibly strategy refinement) that AGL makes. The idea sounds great but to actually get it deployed takes years of further tests/work etc.

The classic is the FDA which took a humongous amount of time and money to achieve but in reality the ability to deploy it for commercial value was many years away and still not achieved,

We could say the same for Ovarian and Prostate where the back story is even longer. Perhaps over a decade.

What about the development of the Her2 assay product. I know they have an assay for use the Eisai contract but the product kit (where we hoped Abbott or Roche might come on board to create a further market for their Her2 FISH probes) has been significantly delayed whilst further testing is done hasn't it? They say there is significant demand for this so a big partner can join in the project but none have signed up yet. This seems to be another example of AGL embarking on a project but it taking much much longer than originally suggeted.

So.. When do you actually think customers will routinely be paying money for combined CTC/ctDNA tests from Angle using NuProbe?

[boris cobaka] 27/9/2024 20:34

sentiment by and large rock bottom here.
I find it a bit more interesting now but no rush perhaps. In the immediate term we may see a short term bounce but unless some contract news emerges then i fear it might only be a brief respite.

[5oletrader] 27/9/2024 20:16

PS @Bagpuss - 'If' AGL break into this clinical trails market with success things could ramp up very quickly - which is 'WHY' yesterday I found this very interesting:• ANGLE has also started work with encouraging results on the application of AI in cell image analysis (both immunofluorescence and FISH). This has the potential to AUTOMATE the LABOUR element of microscopic analysis of the CTCs ensuring consistency and reducing costs for HIGH VOLUME ADOPTION.-

[5oletrader] 27/9/2024 20:04

@Bagpuss - I 'think' I understand your question and happy to try for you as you've been around a long time and know the AGL story well.-I will use the EISAI pilot for context:• Deal value $250k• 50 patients only• 2 time points • $2.5k per blood sample• AGLs 'only' job - to evaluate the HER2 status in CTCs-People here are demanding more contracts with more patients etc etc-Everyone/the market appears to overlooking the obvious - although I get it - emotions are running high-I'm talking LEVERAGE here!• Leveraging your position.With AGLs introduction of the NuProbe NGS panel they 'CAN NOW' offer EISAI the ability to test for gene mutations in both ctDNA + CTCs as well as HER2 status.• NO ONE ELSE CAN DO IT because AGL have the licensing!• By charging $3.5k per NGS panel AGL can LEVERAGE the above deal from $250k to $600k - in effect INCREASING the deal value by 140% WITHOUT needing the underlying fundamentals of the study to change (patients numbers, time points etc)-Take the above deal and add just one (1) time point to the original (2) TPs and I make that a potential deal value just short of £1M (900k).-Apply this to:• EISAI (success)• ASTRAZENECA • RECURSION All of which could bare fruit in the 12-18months time frame you mention and - bingo!-I think you get my point?ATB

[bagpuss67] 27/9/2024 19:26

And? How and when might this conceivably generate inoome for AGL? In case you haven't noticed that is in short supply here.

[5oletrader] 27/9/2024 19:06

@jelenko - exactly my point. If you re-read the NUPROBE RNS your eyes should be drawn to:-... These genes INCLUDE those with MATCHED targeted therapies CURRENTLY selected using assays which USE tumour TISSUE or circulating tumour DNA (ctDNA) and ALIGNS with MANY key drug targets under development by LARGE pharma...-Hence the relevance on the post.

[bagpuss67] 27/9/2024 18:58

Sold Trader could you explain how what you are saying is relevant to AGL's commercial prospects in the next 12-18 months in a straight forward way.

[yasx] 27/9/2024 18:47

Bones,

Your assessment is entirely reasonable - save that it excludes the possibility of the prospect of the two existing contracts moving to the next phase in October amd January respectively (I seem to recall those timelines were mentioned by AN) Of course, one has to treat what he says with considerable caution, but one cannot rule out completely the potential from such a possibility.

[jelenko] 27/9/2024 18:32

But the point is ctdna are fragments of dead cells, so something has already killed them. But ctc's are live new cells looking for a home and they are the ones that need looking at.

[5oletrader] 27/9/2024 17:39

I appreciate everyone recently read this BBC article:-"The 'Quick' cancer DNA test offers hope for thousands"• https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crl8x6rr68zo#comments-Further digging - look at this page from Cardiff University who explain:• When cancer cells DIE, they get BROKEN down and their contents, including small pieces of DNA, are released into the blood. This is called circulating tumour DNA (ctDNA). Researchers have developed a new test that looks for ctDNA in the blood and detects the multiple genetic changes leading to tumour development. Finding DNA with genetic differences aids in diagnosing the type of tumour and helps doctors determine which treatment will be most effective.• https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/centre-for-trials-research/research/studies-and-trials/view/quicdna-Interesting FACTS:• Start date - 1 Oct 2022• END date - 30 Sep 2024• Grant value - £1,916,000-OBJECTIVES:• Blood samples will be collected from patients with a high suspicion of lung cancer.• The Genomic results from the ctDNA test will be made available to the lung cancer multidisciplinary team meeting (MDT), where cancer diagnosis and treatment decisions are made.• Patients will receive personalised treatment after the MDT without the further delay of waiting for the genomic report from the tissue biopsy.-KEY NOTE:• In the CURRENT diagnostic pathway, genomic analysis is requested from tissue biopsy at the lung cancer multidisciplinary (MDT) meeting, around 21-28 days AFTER the first referral. Following the MDT, genomic analysis can take 14-24 days or LONGER if repeat biopsies are required. The CURRENT PATHWAY IS NOT ACCEPTABLE OR EFFICIENT FOR CLINICIANS OR PATIENTS -Study GOAL:• In this study, we will COMPARE the NEW ctDNA diagnostic pathway to the CURRENT tissue biopsy diagnostic pathway.TIMINGS:• Can ctDNA be used to deliver genomic results to inform treatment decisions sooner than tissue biopsy-based approaches?• Can we start appropriate, personalised treatment sooner in patients diagnosed with lung cancer in the ctDNA pathway than the standard pathway?STUDY OUTCOME:• Can we improve survival in patients with lung cancer by improving access to personalised therapy at an earlier time?Full details here:• https://healthandcareresearchwales.org/researchers/our-funded-projects/integration-liquid-biopsy-lung-cancer-diagnostic-pathway-MORE interestingly the Funders:• Health & Care Research Wales• AstraZeneca• Moondance Initiative• Illumina• Amgen• Lilly• BayerWell...• When it comes to advancing liquid biopsy technology and precision medicine, these companies 'could' be seen as allies - Collaborating in funding the QuicDNA study serves their SHARED GOAL of improving cancer diagnostics and increasing the adoption of personalised medicine. ILLUMINA, for example, provides the necessary sequencing technologies to power ctDNA analysis, while ASTRAZENECA and others provide insights into targeted therapies.How could this heat up? Well...• In the broader context of oncology drug development, some of these companies are direct competitors - ASTRAZENECA, AMGEN, LILLY, and BAYER 'all' have oncology pipelines and might be competing for the same patient populations or market share in targeted cancer therapies.However...• In the realm of diagnostics and EARLY detection, they are more aligned, as early diagnosis BENEFITS ALL players by expanding the pool of patients eligible for their drugs.-FOOD FOR THOUGHT:• The current Diagnostic Pathway is BROKEN - this WILL change - no question!• We have shared interests yet competitive interests at the same time• We have BAYER - heavily linked with RECURSION • We have ASTRAZENECA linked to expressing strong interest in CTC assay development • We have the NUPROBE NGS panel having been validated on the ILLUMINA sequencer• CONFIRMING we have strong interest in BOTH ctDNA and CTCs to CHANGE the game!!!!• ?Your task - thread the needle!-ATB

[toffeeman] 27/9/2024 16:12

@Jelenko NO customer acquisition is the way to grow NOT purchase frequency #Ehrenberg-Bass

[jelenko] 27/9/2024 15:08

I think the point is that follow on contracts are likely to be more lucrative than the initial one. Eisai is a pilot but any follow on work will be better rewarded. The second AZ contract was £500k the first £150K. small beer but it is always easier to sell more to an existing customer than find a new one.

[boris cobaka] 27/9/2024 14:00

In some ways I think an extension to an existing contract from Eisai or Astra would perhaps be more beneficial than a new contract with another large pharma. I suppose it would depend on the detail of the new contract but an extension could be seen as further validation.

Anyway making noises about how well the existing contracts are going is comforting up to a point.

[atmysignal] 27/9/2024 11:57

Bones is gaslighting. Plenty going on.

[muffster] 27/9/2024 11:57

https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/1056979/angle-says-targets-turning-cash-flow-positive-after-first-half-hiccup-1056979.html

[muffster] 27/9/2024 11:56

Hmmm how is there nothing happening here?There's new Pharma deals just been announced and it's building This from.ProactiveIn commentary alongside its interims, it said it is seeing encouraging momentum as it builds a pipeline of major pharmaceutical and corporate partnerships.

[atmysignal] 27/9/2024 11:26

Bones, let's get one thing clear here, in real-time. For the record, I assume you are calling Angle a sell here, at 8p. Just for the record? You are calling AGL a sell? A sell at 8p?