Birse Share Discussion Threads

[michaeld] 28/1/2004 09:52

We had a farmhouse built a few years ago where there subsequently appeared to be a lot of serious faults caused by inadequate supervision of the subcontracters who cut costs by cutting corners. It transpired that the site foreman (a brother of the building co MD) was a golf fanatic and spent most of his time during the building of our project and others on various courses in the locality!
Golf is apparently quite a popular pastime amongst building co execs and one wonders if Mr Budden and/ or other staff are often out playing golf or whatever instead of considering the large and small print of the various Birse contracts and supervising them? The signs are there?
I'm not anti golf by the way, great game and a good way of meeting business contacts but not in working hours please.

[chrissey] 28/1/2004 08:06

Birse are peerless when it comes to stuffing something big up on an annual basis!

I can't think that there is a particular reason for this other than incompetence and a way of avoiding ridiculously high dividend payments to shareholders which would then create to much profile for the Company and then require that mgmt manages properly!

Just a personal perspective on a potentially good Company, despite rather than because of present management!

chrissey =)

[toob] 27/1/2004 11:30

m,
I would have thought you're right . Adjudication is a 'quick and cheap' alternative to full blown arbitration, so it would seem daft not to deal with the two cases together. ( They certainly would be taken together in the high court).
Also , the fact that city made their claim first doesnt mean that birse weren't going to make a claim , just that they were ready first. Perhaps birse were trying to settle it by negotiation ( in their new freindly manner) , whereas city couldnt give a toss about their image within the construction industry.
Whatever the outcome of this , it still remains true that birse are susceptible to a big hit on a regular basis.That is the thing that needs to change for these to ever become a multi-bagger. Perhaps their net worth is not big enough for the size of contracts (risks) they're taking on.

[michaeld] 25/1/2004 22:43

Thanks Robarty; I was under the impression that the claim by Citibank and the counterclaim by Birse would be considered at the same time by the same adjudicator?

[robarty] 25/1/2004 19:05

michaeld.

I am not for one minute suggesting Birse will not win this case.

i am by no means a legal eagle but this is how i see it

They cannot win the case on the CITYBANK v birse adjudication because it is not for their's to win...The adjudicator will not judge against the claimant but he may rule that the claimant has no case (draw) or has a case (win). He will not judge that they do not have a case and indeed they themselves have a case to answer (lose) and alocate monies to the defendant (birse). To judge that against the claimant is not in his remit

Birse have countered citybanks adjudication with their own. BIRSE v Citybank.

Same rules apply.

As shareholders we hope citybank draw their adjudication and then birse draw or better Win theirs.

They are not published because they are private affairs between two parties and the conclusion is paid for not by public funds by the claimant who has brought the action. Afterall a defendant would not want to pay for a decision that might be against him. I WILL NOT be for him

[michaeld] 25/1/2004 18:42

Robarty, thanks for replying but I do not see why Birse should not win the case if the adjudicator (a kind of Judge with construction industry knowledge) feels that Citibank have been unreasonable in their dealings with Birse, whom he may or may not consider blameless? Adjudication is a cheaper and generally quicker alternative to court action but surely, because Citibank have started the action does not necessarily imply that they are the innocent party? Also, if they are unhappy with the Adjudicator's decision, they might consider appealling to higher courts but that would probably be unwise as the courts are likely to uphold the Adjudicators decision unless there are good grounds for not doing so?
Generally, in adjudication cases, I believe, there is held to be some faults on both sides and it does result in a kind of 'draw'? Time will tell.
No, I do not recall any adjudication cases being made public. This, I believe is due to the agreed settlement involving clauses not to cause the other party defamation?

[robarty] 25/1/2004 16:46

michaeld: citybank have taken Birse to adjudication. They either win or at best draw. They cannot lose as they have started the proceedings. Remember adjudication is often about a particular event or a small period within a contract.

I would hedge that the citybank v birse adjudication has concluded, however the adjudicator acting on the Birse v City (who is almost certainly the same person) has probably at the agreement of both parties held his agreement until the conclusion of the second adjudication.

He will then hold his decision until he has been paid himself, which again can delay the decision.

And after all of this we may never hear the real outcome as they are private affairs anyway. Have you ever seen one published?

[michaeld] 25/1/2004 13:20

Robarty; 'they can only not lose or draw'? Starting legal action or adjudication puts that party into the driving seat but Birse surely have the right to counterclaim, including compensation for loss of earnings etc for what they might contend was the unreasonable behaviour of 'Citibank' in terminating the contract after messing Birse around or whatever? Building clients are notorious for changing the plans or specification after commencement of a project, for example. On the other hand Birse might be accused of not keeping to the plans, specification or time limits? Without facts we can only wait and hope that Birse were not to blame? I take comfort from the fact that people with a strong case usually opt to play 'hardball' and take it into court hoping that the other party will cave in and pay out a hefty dollop of compensation? Time will tell?

[robarty] 25/1/2004 12:21

city bank adjuducation outcome has been put back to february.

see e mail text below

Mrs Craven is on holiday at the moment, I will forward your email to her on Tuesday when she returns. For your information the conclusion of the adjudication has now been put back to February.

Regards
Sara Anderson

This does not surprise me. Citybank started the adjudication process. Therefore Birse cannot win that process, they can only not lose or draw. Their adjudication process would have started after and subject to the outcome of the citybank one. Personally i see this so far as positive speaking as someone that has been through the process themselves albeit not with 14million stake

[fortyfive] 23/1/2004 19:08

all helps. BIE valued at 26.45 million, turnover 483 million. yield 7.27%. high debt, but a bigger company could refinance that cheaper.Plant Hire division could be sold. looks ready for a re-rating or a takeover to me.its self financing. still waiting to get some news on citibank project soon.

[donalduck] 23/1/2004 17:27

Birse Civils wins £11.3m Cadishead bypass

Birse Civils has won an £11.3m contract with Salford City Council to construct a new bypass around Cadishead in the city.

Work is due to start next month with completion set for May 2006.

The project involves removal of contaminated ground followed by the construction of a 2.4km carriageway. A piled reinforced concrete retaining wall along the Manchester Ship Canal and construction of a box tunel through an existing rail embankment also form part of the project.

Salford City Council's Development Services Directorate will undertake all the engineering services.


22 Jan 2004 12:02

[fortyfive] 21/1/2004 16:14

looks useful tip drago, thanks. (try CKN too) . I want to get some energy into the SIPP for long term. Can't decide on a (profitable) tiddler like BUR or SHEL.(missed cairn obviously).

[fortyfive] 21/1/2004 16:04

OK, I'll take look. no action here until we get some news.

[drago] 21/1/2004 10:51

45,
i got out of birse and went into burren energy. looks very interesting and unnoticed.

[fortyfive] 21/1/2004 09:39

300K buy just went thru.

[fortyfive] 20/1/2004 11:59

sold the portfolio dog(EPD) and bought a few to stay with BIE on the radar. lots of sells again today though.what happenned to that court announcement?

[fortyfive] 19/1/2004 15:11

I hope so. The share price seems to dip this time of year, but I'd be happy to get back in on positives or a lower price. Very high turnover versus share price, and they could always sell divisions like the plant hire for a good price(or someone will do it for them). Probably leaves the build side in for nothing.

[chrissey] 19/1/2004 13:21

Suspect that price tick up is not just as a result of speculation or gambling?

maybe word is filtering out that Birse exposure to Citibank dispute is not substantial and therefore bracing for reasonable price recovery.

This kind of smoke is always the indication that there is a fire in the offing and maybe not a good time to sell out!

chrissey

[fortyfive] 15/1/2004 12:59

208000 sells and counting today, same for days now(mind you at 13p thats not a lot of cash). maybe the MM's know a buyer in the offing? Trend ain't your friend here at the momment. wait for better value.

[oniabsta] 15/1/2004 11:30

wow.. those mm's held the price for soooo.. long ! Should hit the skids now in the event of any further selling

[fortyfive] 15/1/2004 10:29

Just sold all mine, too many days of all selling and no buys.Seems that the market view is they will loose against the Citibank lawyers.

BIE still seems a very cheap share to me, and I'm sure someone is going to take them over for the turnover or do a private capital fund break up job. Agree wth redArmy above - get back in below 10p.

[red army] 14/1/2004 18:30

I've been a long term follower of BIE and simply don't trust their methods anymore. The appointed divisional Md's do not appear to be showing any signs of promise and these constant clouds that we see every year are no longer good for my nerves.
All they seem to be doing each year is make the lawyers richer and not live up to the citys expectations.
I am prepared to wait on the sidelines until the share price drops to such a level that it provides a suitable buffer for the next disaster and then buy.

[pmeas] 14/1/2004 18:13

DBOYD,its one way forward lower paye nic liability insurance admin etc.

[michaeld] 14/1/2004 17:55

Yes, mystifying. I would guess that the MM's are accumulating stock for a large buy order?

[miamisteve] 13/1/2004 16:36

All sells again and no change