Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
600 Group LSE:SIXH London Ordinary Share GB0008121641 ORD 1P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  +0.00p +0.00% 16.50p 16.00p 17.00p 16.55p 16.50p 16.50p 15,000 14:00:04
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Industrial Engineering 47.0 3.2 2.0 8.4 18.64

600 Group Share Discussion Threads

Showing 1876 to 1900 of 1900 messages
Chat Pages: 76  75  74  73  72  71  70  69  68  67  66  65  Older
DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
20/2/2018
15:52
CJ at that time, of fast growth, the sales force were a law to themselves. I never heard of a claw back, that day of reckoning came much later.
rburtn
20/2/2018
14:40
Ok,rburtn, I wil bow to your experience in the IT industry. This may explain (part of) the shortfall; I suspect they cherry-pick dates as well. I'd certainly be expecting some explanation from the company if backing out on orders was the only reason for the very considerable shortfall. all best CJohn BTW Did the IT company you cite wise up and only pay commissions on received revenue?
cjohn
19/2/2018
14:03
I'm sorry CJohn but I've been there, seen it done. Orders booked before the end of month, commission paid, two or three days into the next month the order is interpreted as a letter of intent, customer changes mind, sale/order disappears, salesman left with commission. Industry was fast growing IT but I would be naive to think it didn't happen elsewhere and I give it as a possible explanation. Firm orders can be cancelled as a result of many circumstances and not many participants reach for their lawyers when they do - not if they wish to maintain the goodwill of their prospects.
rburtn
18/2/2018
13:08
We are not talking here about the language that salespeople use when they win an order. "I've made another sale." We are talking about language used in company documents and sccounting. In that context, an order and a sale are not the same. An order - when mutually accepted - is a legally binding contract to buy/sell etc. The sale is when that contract is realised. In some cases, there can be years between an order and the subsequent sale going through. Order books are not then the same as revenue or turnover, which IS equivalent to sales. By the way, you say these orders to SIXH have "turned sour". This is highly unlikely to be the explanation for the apparent mystery. We would have heard if SIXH or clients were constantly backing out of contracts. Legal costs would be high! I've suggested that SIXH cherry-pick times to report on order books. Growth in the order books at other points in the annual cycle might be then less dramatic. This would acount for sales only then rising by a much lesser amount. Or there may be several factors at play.
cjohn
18/2/2018
10:43
rburtn - just out of interest; how do you know that Qingdao offered 25p?
value hound
18/2/2018
10:34
Semantics, I agree, my mistake which you compound, sales and orders are synonyms, the problem which the earlier poster raised was sales exceeding revenue. In a sales-driven environment, booked 'sales' or 'orders' meet targets and generate commission- sometimes on flimsy intent. If they turn sour, for whatever reason, you get what is mentioned, revenue falling far short of bookings. Someone must be prospering with the free use of capital for over 15 years (no divis), the pension contribution holiday and refusal of a 25p take over bid. It certainly is not the ordinary shareholder. Let's hope things are about to change.
rburtn
18/2/2018
09:37
Sales exceed orders? It's the other way round. On several occasions they have announced big increases in the order book. But subsequents sales increases are much more modest. Orders generate profit and dividends? Not until they turn into sales!
cjohn
16/2/2018
10:11
Just some historic data: 1996,7,8: t/o 146m, 143m, 133m: divi 4p/sh, 5, 5.5; It would not be the first company where 'sales' - which generate commissions, exceed 'orders' which generate profit - and divis.
rburtn
16/2/2018
09:35
Hi Kazoom, Im don't think the Hardman analyst has quite got his head round the complexities of the pension situation!!! Maybe we should invite him for a chat.... Having said that, SIXH are clearly in a much better position than TNI with regards pensions. The crux of SIXH is whether they can translate profits into cash rather than merely increasing working capital. The very good point you made re announced order book increases not corresponding to subsequent increased sales levels remains a mystery by the way.
cjohn
15/2/2018
22:05
Thanks coolen, Blimey - the co dates back to 1834 (I had it in the back of my mind that there was history into the 19th century but not that far !!) hTtps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cohen,_Sons_and_Company
kazoom
15/2/2018
21:32
The present "600 Group" was previously named "The George Cohen 600 Group" and the same company has been listed on the Stock Exchange since the year dot. But I agree, they have made acquisitions over the years. And trimmed the name.
coolen
15/2/2018
20:49
I think the GROUP was formed in the 80's but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the companies were formed MUCH earlier.
kazoom
15/2/2018
20:38
Did I hear the analyst say the company was formed in the 1980's ? It goes back much further.
coolen
15/2/2018
20:25
From that Hardman Q&A : " I do think if the Group is able to secure a cash refund owing to the pension fund surplus then subsequent to paying off any its debt, we are in a scenario of the possibility of restoration of the dividend or special dividend payment." Really???? Even I wasn't that bullish about monetising the Pensions surplus. They also fail to see the elephant in the room - namely that pretty much all of the realisable disposals have been made and they desperately need to generate real cash the HY or else they run out of money. Even though I'm not a holder at this time I do hope they can achieve that, but given that they don't do trading statements it's a long old wait until June to find out in the FY results. For my money the projected revenue growth of 7-8% is nowhere near sufficient to compensate for the risk - particularly at this relatively "lofty" valuation. So I am more than happy to sit on the sidelines and take the chance that this becomes "one that got away". What's going to propel the share price in advance of the results?
kazoom
15/2/2018
09:51
Thanks for the link, value hound. The Q & A is a very short - and positive - summary of the recent Hardman report.
cjohn
09/2/2018
12:00
600 Group PLC Q&A with Hardman & Co: hxxps://www.directorstalkinterviews.com/600-group-plc-qa-hardman-co-lonsixh/412745506 in summary, we think that the shares are very attractively valued - so do I :-)
value hound
01/2/2018
15:48
Only quietly pushed with a little finger by EK; engineering machinery is a sector that is quite heavy going and affected by exchange rates as an added factor. The share price has been steadily rising from 8p in the last 18 months and that is a good sector performance and beats most. Must not forget it is a micro-cap at around £20m and the 2014 high of 24p looks a reasonable first target - may take awhile though.
noirua
17/1/2018
22:24
Front page of today's Times shines a light on the pension surplus in terms of the reduction in life expectancy of northern workers. So, a one year reduction equates to what(?) 2%/3%/4% reduction in liabilities - I don't know as I'm not an actuary, but there must be a significant impact. If they have also been able to persuade some deferred pensioners to transfer out this would also have an impact. Will be even more significant if the trend in life expectancy continues.
1gerryp
11/1/2018
08:09
Latest manufacturing news along with US markets improving should bode well for sixh, one would assume.
hastings
03/1/2018
09:20
Interesting movement today on the back of a flurry of buys. Tipped somewhere?
hastings
27/11/2017
21:13
Good point Cjohn
dan_the_epic
22/11/2017
13:32
Returning to the subject of debt. It seems to me that suppliers would worry about SIXH's cash position. (Solvency is much less of an issue,) And that SIXH went for the equity raise, instead of taking on further debt, precisely to reassure suppliers and clients in the UK of their liquidity. They need to get into a virtuous cycle. If operational cash flow goes towards paying down debt rather than building up stocks, then creditors will be more relaxed about payment dates and the cash position will improve further etc
cjohn
22/11/2017
08:42
I remain a cautious holder here. If they do as well as they say they are going to, there's considerable upside.
cjohn
22/11/2017
08:41
Hi Kazoom and Hastings, thanks for your kind and informative replies. Sometimes,I don't signal irony very well! "Also I don't see they can go on reducing payables",... was sarcasm. So I agree with you on this one, Kazoom The most optimistic possibility would be that they're actively paying off more quickly to get better terms. I'd like to see another half, before coming to conclusions. Ok, what you say about the order books makes sense, though I don't see what they'd gain by any attempt to mislead. My own feeling is that we still don't have enough of these claims about the order book to come to firm conclusions. It could just be chance that they've pronounced strong order books and then trading has deteriorated or some orders have been cancelled. I guess forward books are only for a few weeks??And world machine tool sales seem particularly unpredictable, with quite marked swings in growth/decline. If this realtively benign reading of the situation is the case, it still suggests they haven't learnt from previous experience. all best CJohn
cjohn
21/11/2017
23:32
Thanks CJohn, for a well thought out reply as ever. "The management sound particularly confident currently; they tend to be over-optimistic however." Yup that pretty much encapsulates my current waning interest / growing scepticism. On the pension, I have to confess that I hadn't actually looked at the latest numbers and was basing my comment on the quote from the FD. On reflection I think that there are actually two "buyout" valuations : 1 - The cost of buying matching annuities individually for each prospective pensioner less the net assets (which I think is effectively the conventional measure) and 2 - The amount for which the scheme could be sold to an enterprising insurer prepared to take on the risk in return for the probable gain. (This would require some ironclad underwriting to get past the trustees I would imagine) Even if diminished the second measure sounds like it would be positive. Anyway back to matter operational. I cannot buy the idea that the short term nature of the order book explains the mismatch between order book and revenues, that would infer that the order book is artificially high every time they report on it and very negative in the intervening periods. (I am aware that companies massage order book to ensure that everything possible is signed before the end of a reporting period, but some of the figures I quoted were in between figures). If the next HY does not deliver a substantial improvement in revenues I think it will categorically demonstrated that the order book is "unreliable" (I was about to use other words but I think they might have been considered defamatory.) On the cashflow you say : "Also I don't see that they can go on reducing payables." I do not believe that any company actively sets out to reduce payables, so if payables are reducing whilst the amount of stuff they are buying is actually increasing, this suggests to me that suppliers regard them as a bad risk and will not offer them extended payment terms. I'm afraid that every turn makes me more wary about this as an investment, which is really not where I wanted to be; in terms of what they do it's something I wanted to believe in.
kazoom
Chat Pages: 76  75  74  73  72  71  70  69  68  67  66  65  Older
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