Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
600 Group LSE:SIXH London Ordinary Share GB0008121641 ORD 1P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  +0.00p +0.00% 16.25p 16.00p 16.50p 16.25p 16.25p 16.25p 0 08:00:00
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Industrial Engineering 47.0 3.2 2.0 8.2 18.36

600 Group Share Discussion Threads

Showing 1876 to 1900 of 1900 messages
Chat Pages: 76  75  74  73  72  71  70  69  68  67  66  65  Older
DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
18/4/2018
11:11
Yes, buying annuities will be more expensive than the technical provisions basis: this is the premium that SIXH would have to pay. A premium over the technical provisions pay out. So I doubt whether the SIXH surplus is big enough currently to allow a profitable off-loading of the UK pension scheme. However, the possiblity is there, depending on how the discount rate changes and how assets perfrom.
cjohn
17/4/2018
19:51
Quite right wynmck - sorry I was looking at the wrong thing - July it is so about 2 and half months to wait - much better!
kazoom
17/4/2018
18:25
six months? was 4 July last year
wynmck
17/4/2018
18:03
And beyond CJohn, and beyond ! In layman's terms if the price stays on or above the line, then it's still going up if it drops below it might go down. Anyway I'd echo the thanks to rburtn for pointing out the Hunting pension situation. Looking through it appears they have bought all of the members of the scheme an annuity, thereby allowing them to recover all of the cash that is left over. That has to be a possibility here, but the sooner the worst for shareholders imho as left alone the surplus should continue to grow. As it stands on a "technical provisions" basis the surplus is (Oct-17) £12.2m on scheme liabilities of c. £230m. I would have though that annuities would be more expensive even than the technical provisions measure, so could easily eat up most of that surplus imho. The risk is though that if the company do in fact continue to haemorrhage cash the need for a small amount of cash in the short term could justify sacrificing the bigger gains to be made from more patient management of the surplus. Still probably 2 1/2 (corrected by wynmck I originally said 6!) months to go before we hear any more news from the company (FY results) unless there is anything material and unexpected to report.
kazoom
16/4/2018
13:18
Hi rburtn, I took a quick read of Hunting's pension arrangements. Unfortunately, there was some ambiguity about what would happen with the remaining surplus. It wasn't clear that all of this would go back to the company, though some definitely would. However, I'm happy to accept that my negative position with regards to treating pension surpluses as a company asset was over-stated. Well done, Kazoom and yourself, for putting the opposite argument and persuading me. Thanks. all best CJohn
cjohn
16/4/2018
12:45
Thank you, rburtn, for bringing this to our attention. I appreciate it. Hi Kazoom, I do feel very reassured by that wonderful upward sloping crimson line you've drawn in there; presumably it goes on to infinity.
cjohn
07/4/2018
14:34
As the subject of pension fund surplus has been mentioned before on this thread, I thought it worthwhile to refer to recent changes on the Hunting pension arrangements - likewise in surplus. The liabilities have been re-insured with a third party, Rothesay Life plc, which has not only removed the inflation linked ceiling which currently applies but is offering the remaining surplus back to the employer. There is a period of grace of 2 months for consultation. Any thought that sixh should pay a premium for a re-insurer to take the surplus off the company's hands should be given short shrift.
rburtn
04/4/2018
20:40
For the benefit of CJohn, who loves this stuff ;-) there is a nice support line here: However, given the doubts I have expressed over the last few months, the valuation would still be a little rich for me. The reason for the drop though would surely be based on the risk of any sales SIXH make from the US businesses to China. If the price were lower and more tempting to me, I'd be bothered to search for the numbers, but I seem to recall there are sales in this direction that could be at risk.
kazoom
04/4/2018
20:10
MRF Just a dismal market, I believe. Similar losses are afflicting most of my portfolio. In many cases the falls may be caused by investors realising their losses for CGT relief before the new tax year but I doubt if this applies here.
varies
04/4/2018
20:08
end of tax yr?
wynmck
04/4/2018
19:44
Lots of selling, any reason ?
my retirement fund
16/3/2018
22:20
I cant get comfortable here but came across the note. Basically saying new markets and new products could drive growth and global economy is good. Say net debt kind of equates to the pension surplus. And say they see fair value at 25.5p The story seems the laser products here, rather than the lathes, which seems GDP+ growth. maybe GDP +1% as a base case. Not really exciting so all depends how lasers turn out vs. lathes.
pireric
10/3/2018
11:34
Hi Hastings, could you post a link? I haven't been able to find this note from WH Ireland. Or alternatively, give a summary here? Thanks
cjohn
07/3/2018
07:49
New 16 page note out from Ireland today, lots of reading today!
hastings
20/2/2018
15:52
CJ at that time, of fast growth, the sales force were a law to themselves. I never heard of a claw back, that day of reckoning came much later.
rburtn
20/2/2018
14:40
Ok,rburtn, I wil bow to your experience in the IT industry. This may explain (part of) the shortfall; I suspect they cherry-pick dates as well. I'd certainly be expecting some explanation from the company if backing out on orders was the only reason for the very considerable shortfall. all best CJohn BTW Did the IT company you cite wise up and only pay commissions on received revenue?
cjohn
19/2/2018
14:03
I'm sorry CJohn but I've been there, seen it done. Orders booked before the end of month, commission paid, two or three days into the next month the order is interpreted as a letter of intent, customer changes mind, sale/order disappears, salesman left with commission. Industry was fast growing IT but I would be naive to think it didn't happen elsewhere and I give it as a possible explanation. Firm orders can be cancelled as a result of many circumstances and not many participants reach for their lawyers when they do - not if they wish to maintain the goodwill of their prospects.
rburtn
18/2/2018
13:08
We are not talking here about the language that salespeople use when they win an order. "I've made another sale." We are talking about language used in company documents and sccounting. In that context, an order and a sale are not the same. An order - when mutually accepted - is a legally binding contract to buy/sell etc. The sale is when that contract is realised. In some cases, there can be years between an order and the subsequent sale going through. Order books are not then the same as revenue or turnover, which IS equivalent to sales. By the way, you say these orders to SIXH have "turned sour". This is highly unlikely to be the explanation for the apparent mystery. We would have heard if SIXH or clients were constantly backing out of contracts. Legal costs would be high! I've suggested that SIXH cherry-pick times to report on order books. Growth in the order books at other points in the annual cycle might be then less dramatic. This would acount for sales only then rising by a much lesser amount. Or there may be several factors at play.
cjohn
18/2/2018
10:43
rburtn - just out of interest; how do you know that Qingdao offered 25p?
value hound
18/2/2018
10:34
Semantics, I agree, my mistake which you compound, sales and orders are synonyms, the problem which the earlier poster raised was sales exceeding revenue. In a sales-driven environment, booked 'sales' or 'orders' meet targets and generate commission- sometimes on flimsy intent. If they turn sour, for whatever reason, you get what is mentioned, revenue falling far short of bookings. Someone must be prospering with the free use of capital for over 15 years (no divis), the pension contribution holiday and refusal of a 25p take over bid. It certainly is not the ordinary shareholder. Let's hope things are about to change.
rburtn
18/2/2018
09:37
Sales exceed orders? It's the other way round. On several occasions they have announced big increases in the order book. But subsequents sales increases are much more modest. Orders generate profit and dividends? Not until they turn into sales!
cjohn
16/2/2018
10:11
Just some historic data: 1996,7,8: t/o 146m, 143m, 133m: divi 4p/sh, 5, 5.5; It would not be the first company where 'sales' - which generate commissions, exceed 'orders' which generate profit - and divis.
rburtn
16/2/2018
09:35
Hi Kazoom, Im don't think the Hardman analyst has quite got his head round the complexities of the pension situation!!! Maybe we should invite him for a chat.... Having said that, SIXH are clearly in a much better position than TNI with regards pensions. The crux of SIXH is whether they can translate profits into cash rather than merely increasing working capital. The very good point you made re announced order book increases not corresponding to subsequent increased sales levels remains a mystery by the way.
cjohn
15/2/2018
22:05
Thanks coolen, Blimey - the co dates back to 1834 (I had it in the back of my mind that there was history into the 19th century but not that far !!) hTtps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cohen,_Sons_and_Company
kazoom
15/2/2018
21:32
The present "600 Group" was previously named "The George Cohen 600 Group" and the same company has been listed on the Stock Exchange since the year dot. But I agree, they have made acquisitions over the years. And trimmed the name.
coolen
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