Wasps 22 Discussion Threads

[notabondholder] 02/8/2022 11:56

Ozzy at this minute can you cash in your £100k NO you can’t, ok you may have made £20k in interest but what good is that if it cost you £80k.

[dandigirl] 02/8/2022 09:34

The gist


"""The Times understands that Sisu, a Mayfair-based hedge fund, is considering a sale of Coventry City, believing that Wasps’ distress may present an opportunity for a third party to make an offer for the club and, at the same time, bid to acquire the lease for the arena. A senior source said Sisu was “open for business”. Sisu itself is unlikely to make an offer for the stadium because of its troubled relationship with Coventry city council, which owns the freehold""".

[mjl4212] 02/8/2022 08:22

Link for Times subscribers is

hxxps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hedge-fund-puts-coventry-city-in-play-xx95tnrwj

For everyone else, we get to see part of the article if you're very quick.

"The hedge fund owner of Coventry City FC is open to offers from a buyer with the clout to capitalise on financial difficulties at Wasps, the rugby team that owns the football club’s shared stadium.

Wasps, who play in England’s top rugby division, are in default on a £35 million bond, having failed to repay retail investors who helped to finance the purchase of the Coventry Building Society Arena in 2015.

The bond was suspended from the London Stock Exchange in May when repayment had been due. Last Friday Wasps admitted that it also would miss a new repayment deadline of August 12.

The Times understands that Sisu, a Mayfair-based hedge fund, is considering a sale of Coventry City, believing that Wasps’ distress may present ....

Continue reading "

[ozzie_dog] 02/8/2022 08:19

What is the gist of it dandigirl?

[ozzie_dog] 02/8/2022 08:17

@Notabondholder it is approx. £20k of gross interest (and some of it is in my ISA) and still counting, and also I think that it is very unlikely that none of the capital will be paid back. I actually would make a profit (not a loss as I said below) if it pays out at 50p (or more). Given that all my other 'riskier' investments have paid off, the overall picture is very rosy.

[dandigirl] 02/8/2022 06:45

There is a piece in today’s Times. Not able to post a link. Anybody?

[pusb] 01/8/2022 16:58

Ozzie-dog

I referred to the prospectus
Risk factors relating to the valuation of the Arena In carrying out and providing their valuation of the Arena, it should be noted that Strutt & Parker LLP (the “Valuers”;) undertook no building surveys, carried out no environmental surveys nor carried out any independent site investigations. The valuation also assumes that no deleterious or hazardous materials were used in the construction of the Arena. No assurance is given in the valuation that the Arena is not subject to any subsidence. The valuation also assumes that the Arena is fully compliant will all licences and regulations. The valuation also relies on a certificate of title provided to the Valuers by the lawyers to ACL. The valuation also takes into account operational matters relating to ACL and Wasps Holdings, including trading history and cashflow forecasts. Furthermore, property markets are subject to external market conditions. It is possible that real estate prices and values (either specifically in the Coventry area or more generally) could decrease or go through a period of heightened volatility which could have a material adverse impact on ACL’s business, financial condition or results of operations. If any of the assumptions within the valuation prepared by the Valuers (as to which, see Section 14 (Summary Valuation Report)) are shown to be incorrect, this could have an adverse effect on the Guarantors’ business, results of operations, financial condition and/or prospects; and could result in any proceeds received from the sale of the Arena being significantly less than the value attributed by the Valuers in Section 14 of this Prospectus.

Further section 4 of the Strutt and Parker report says that they visited and walked through the stadium, so unable to give any assurance that it is free from defect. The valuation took not account cash flow forecasts that have not been delivered pre COVID.

[ozzie_dog] 01/8/2022 16:41

If we had invested only in safe investments, we would definitely far less wealth that we currently have. That said though, for the last 2 years I have started to de-risk (sort of), not because I am concerned about the risk, but we can't spend what we already have, so there is no point in risking current wealth to gain what we could never spend! But I would definitely invest at least another £20k in the wasps bond if I could buy at 30p, I wouldn't be bale to resist.

[ozzie_dog] 01/8/2022 16:40

But you can't pick out one single risky investment and say that! The Wasps bond is one of quite a few riskier investments, obviously there is always the risk one won't perform as hoped, but you have to take the view overall whether the strategy pays off or not. You have to look at the total picture, not just one investment, my Wasps bond investment was only a 1.5% portfolio punt, and overall it has paid off much better than I anticipated. Besides I have not given up on wasps, for example if the price went to 25/30 p as mentioned on here, I will definitely be investing more.

[notabondholder] 01/8/2022 16:34

Yes but if you don’t get your money back you haven’t been getting 11% you have lost £100k in exchange for a couple of k interest

[ozzie_dog] 01/8/2022 15:58

I didn't pay £1, I only paid 59.2p, and it isn't actually £170k, £170k is what I would get back if it redeemed at £1. I invested just over £100k (I couldn't remember, but I just checked). If it paid out at 50p I would get out with a very small loss, considering the rate that I have been getting (just under 11%) compared to a much safer investment.

[ozzie_dog] 01/8/2022 15:53

@AOOO2577 I would probably buy at 40p, it gives a 16.25% return (based on the original 6.5% coupon price) and every chance of getting 40p or more in the £ back eventually. But I already have a reasonable sum invested (at an average of 59.2p)

[notabondholder] 01/8/2022 15:50

I feel sorry for you ozzy dog with £170k lost in this bond would be very surprised if you see half of it back, you can value it whatever you like but at the end of the day it’s worth what someone is willing to pay

[fastcat99] 01/8/2022 12:31

PS @A0002577 (If we are going to play Fantasy Footbourse...)
I would expect bid/offer spreads on stock suddenly relisted at a deep discount to be at least 25/30%, surely

[fastcat99] 01/8/2022 12:25

The bond price will be heavily influenced by the statements and documentation accompanying the Consent Solicitation, the voting figures and any comments we can glean from the Trustee

[a0002577] 01/8/2022 12:25

Ozzie_dog : try 18 bid and 20 offer - I would e a buyer at that price.

[ozzie_dog] 01/8/2022 12:11

I wonder what value the bond will trade at if it is re-listed.

[ozzie_dog] 01/8/2022 12:06

@PUSB Are you saying that the statement in the valuation document stating that the stadium was visited by 2 chartered surveyors on 21 April 2021, and that is what the valuation is based upon is not correct? It is confusing because the valuation itself is dated 31 March 2021

[grahamg8] 30/7/2022 19:18

We may just get one solicitation option, but Enquest had two. Extend the existing bonds, or a new longer bond with higher coupon. Roughly half chose each. The big difference is that Enquest are making a profit and are paying down their debts gradually, just not quite fast enough to meet the bond timetable.

Although the debt is due from Finance it is guaranteed by all the group companies. The whole lot will collapse without some agreement from the bond holders. Richardson and his buddies will lose the lot. They are the ones who are desperate, not us.

And yes I agree because of the guarantees all the Wasp companies now appear to be trading insolvently.

[cesareborgia] 30/7/2022 14:16

Refinancing has been a fantasy for several years but nobody really wanted to admit it least of all Wasps Finance plc

[bigfish1] 30/7/2022 11:32

12s it's not about feeling smug or getting revenge it's about getting our money back. Wasps are insolvent and, looking at the financial reports, they have been losing money since we'll before the pandemic. The longer we leave it the more they will lose and the less chance we have of getting our money back. They cannot find anyone to lend them the money and with good reason. It is clear that all the financial institutions they have approached do not consider them to be viable and will not lend them money on any terms. It would be stupid for us to agree to continue to lend them money when people whose job it is to assess these risks will not. We must salvage what we can by getting them to sell the arena. Someone will buy it and jobs will be saved. Perhaps it will be run better and be more successful.

Lots of information here. None of it good. I think refinancing is a fantasy. hxxps://www.wasps.co.uk/your-club/wasps-bonds/

[pusb] 30/7/2022 11:24

Wasps problems are more systemic than Covid related. The stadium was valued by a desk top exercise - the valuers didn’t even visit the stadium - and is now 7 years older and in need of remedial work. Attendances are in decline, the original local excitement and interest has dissipated. Concert attendees are critical of the facilities and logistics. Losses continue to accrue. Each additional year at 6.5% means another £2.75 million has to be found - from where? Richardson isn’t mega rich.

[bondholder] 30/7/2022 10:57

Remember that a prospective lender wants a margin of safety over the proposed loan. So even if the security might sell for 35m plus they would be looking for perhaps 50m valuation to grant the loan. The refusal of finance does not mean a buyer cannot be found at 35m.

[l2s] 30/7/2022 10:57

"At least we would have the satisfaction of having wiped out current owners who have behaved dishonestly." No, No, No!!!
Those of us who invested in the WASPs bonds are investors who since the bond was issued have received the interest payments promised and have, quite possibly, topped up holdings at a discount to produce an even higher return. The company in common with many other organisations has been hit very hard by the Covid pandemic and now finds itself struggling to arrange re-financing to meet the scheduled repayment of the bonds. Whilst it is undoubtedly true that communications and general attitude to bondholders has been appalling I would derive absolutely no satisfaction from jeopardising the money I have invested just so that I could smugly say "Well that taught them a lesson didn't it!" At this point in time I haven't lost anything and as long as the company continues to operate there is every chance that situation will remain. Attempting to force liquidation at this time is not the way forward.