Victrex Share Discussion Threads

[hazelton] 19/2/2006 20:39

I do not realy understand it but the pure AIM trusts do not seem to make a great deal for the investors in general. Even ones from F&C which must be close to Baronsmead in origin (I think). A study of longer term statistics suggests to me that there are only three groups that generally return some sort of profit and it needs the tax breaks to make it in any way attractive. I am afraid that there must be many (now) small funds that will be absorbed by the better orgainsations which will be their shareholders only way to see an eventual gain in the distant future. Prices go up and prices go down but charges only go up.

[david77] 19/2/2006 11:52

Some years ago I wanted to shelter some capital gains so put a few bob into AIM VCT2 @ 100p. I think I got 20p income tax back so net 80p/share and I deferred 40p CGT.

I have just received the latest a/cs. They realised a profit of £101k, had unrealised gains of £32k - total gains £133k on investments of £36 million.

For that wonderful performance, the managers charged £681k and directors charged £51,466.

The current bid price for those shares in 67p and I would then have to pay the deferred 40p CGT.

I will be selling these after 6 April 'cos at least I can use the money until Jan 08 when I will have to pay the deferred tax.

And, almost unbelievable, I have another that's even worse Quester 4 :-)

I will not be buying VCTs again.

[hazelton] 19/1/2006 07:15

Yes , I keep an eye on both sites. I like Bestinvest , they seem to do a good job.

I shall be interested in how quickly the Baronsmead 4 goes. That is a thought about markets sapping monies that could go to VCTs.

The power of mass marketing is considerable to have build a substantial part of the sector based upon little. I wish that I had a wood burning stove sometimes.

[spin doctor] 18/1/2006 19:55

BestInvest ( keeps pretty close track of things, confirmed by a very similar table at "tax efficient review".

You are right that things are very slow for most. The exceptions are Baronsmead - I guess because of its quality - and Eclipse - assume because of mass mailing and targeting of the more mainstream punter.

Things will now wind up quickly week by week before the tax year ends, and most funds will get decent backing; whether they should or not is a different question.
If quoted markets boom however, maybe some of that money will stay put, reducing subs into a (largely) tax perk driven VCT sector.

[hazelton] 18/1/2006 13:42

Indeed , I was a bit concerned about the IR looking at some trusts to check the details. I suspect its a response to a sort of liberty take.

I was pleased to see that Baronsmead3 sold out quickly but I am not sure why some other offers are not closer to their target or am I mistaken ?

[24demaio] 18/1/2006 05:34

Typical Brown

[hazelton] 09/1/2006 23:42

I wonder what next years VCT tax concessions and regulations will be. 500M is not that much in terms of up and comming fledgling companies for the economy. I would like to see more backing going to small but viable companies.

[spin doctor] 09/1/2006 19:07

Yep, have to agree with all that you say. The sheer mass of these (probably another £500M this year) makes consolidation and a maturing, more sophisticated market an inevitability given time.

Re: "I am not sure also why some IFA s support them." (ie the weaker performing VCTs).
I have no idea either (well, other than the obvious, ie that there may be IFA/company-specific financial inducements). The recommendations of some of the more prominent IFAs are idiosyncratic to say the least: I look at them and struggle to see the investment case.

[hazelton] 08/1/2006 21:16

I agree about the AIM VCTs , generally few of them have done well. I think that the opportunity to get exposure to private equity deals is preferable although I respect the managers decision to use some AIM as they see fit.

I put the real players at Baronsmead , Close and Foresight in that order. The first two have several trusts that have positive overall returns . So many others seem to fritter away capital. I am not sure also why some IFA s support them.

They would generally be not brilliant investments without the tax concessions but with them they have a place.

I am keen to see what 5 years will bring as some of the trusts will be heading towards 100M. I think the prizes for the better groups will be to have decent sized ITs that hopefully will have acceptable spreads and discounts with a healthy secondary market. With the tax convcessions available to the secondary markets it may create a bit more interest. I do not see the weaker players having any of that benefit. Hopefully the better players will expand a little more by aquisition...

[spin doctor] 05/1/2006 23:16

Subs to these (ie 05/06 VCT launches) will go through the roof soon as the tax year end approaches.
40% income tax relief upfront is v.tempting, but does mean that even mediocre/poor investment managers (or those without significant experience in the sector) will have successful launches - but most likely poor long term performance.

I'm afraid that I increasingly believe that AIM VCTs are a waste of time. The more frank/honest managers of such funds do say that the VCT restrictions are quite limiting and do reduce investment returns. Maybe one or two of those that promise to return 30-40% cash within 3-4 years are worthwhile, but only if you're interested in churning cash and reaping tax perks rather than the investment case itself.

Among the non-AIM VCTs, it's becoming increasingly clear that there are those groups that can earn a useful return and those that cannot. Those that can include Baronsmead, Foresight, Close and probably Matrix. Amongst the other heavyweights, Northern have been safe but very dull; Electra look promosing but it is early days for them, at least in the VCT sector.
Aberdeen (ex Murray) is being touted by a few IFAs, but not clear to me that performance has yet improved from the disaster of the late 90s. Quester seems to have given up raising new money after very weak performance in the tech sector (used to think this was just a timing issue, but there's been no post-2003 bounce and the lack of a new launch does not bode well for the group). Eclipse VCTs have raked in masses of cash; whether they'll be able to invest it all quickly without compromising quality must be in doubt; and the Inland Revenue is talking tough to VCTs that don't hit the 70% (within 3 year) investment in qualifying investments - it'd be pretty tough on investors to have to repay the 40% relief after three years when they were expecting to RECEIVE a cheque, but that is what may happen in some cases.

Sorry, but I'm not into buying in the 2ndary market. I can however see some mileage in buying at a discount in the 2ndary market and holding (very) long term (ie 5-15 years) for the dividend stream, especially some of the more mature VCTs and some of the special situations (the Murray VCTs may be an example - recently management taken over by Close, who will be very keen to perform and earn some bonuses). Thinking of trading VCTs, even over a timescale of months to a year or two, is ludicrous though I think - spreads and liquidity are still just hopeless ('though for some VCTs and groups, market cap is now substantial, and a few more years should see a decent market develop).

Best discounts still from cavendishonline I think. Brief quality appraisals from Bestinvest and Chelsea Financial Services are available free on the web (but not much consistency between them!).

Good luck

[hazelton] 25/9/2005 12:19

As the season is starting any thoughts on the offerings (securities notes) so far ?

[spin doctor] 19/7/2005 22:48

Golly gosh. My ears were not burning in May, tho' seems they should've beene.
Still think this is an interesting sector, but oh so different to the usual bb stuff.
Will post a bit more when I've gotabitoftime.

[energyi] 13/5/2005 11:58

Added more charts to Header.

Spin Doctors VCT picks have done fine on average: Good going!

threads he has set up:

[energyi] 12/5/2005 19:01

Sent a email.
You can remove that. Thanks

[a0002577] 12/5/2005 18:56

energyi have sent again. This is real back to the future bearing in mind your next post - all done by Edit.

[energyi] 12/5/2005 18:50

A000

If you sent an email, can you resend it. Thnx

[a0002577] 12/5/2005 18:34

Murray VCT4 have gone back to their original investment manager ! Here's the fee structure they have agreed

Fees: the Company will pay to Murray Johnstone a performance related fee which is subject to a minimum amount being payable. (The minimum amount is based on a gross assets test or a net assets test and for the period from 1 March 2005 to 31 August 2005 will be calculated by using the percentage of 0.4735% per quarter of a gross asset test, for the period from 1 September 2005 to 31 August 2006 will be calculated by using the percentage of 0.125% per quarter of a net asset test and thereafter will be calculated by using the
percentage of 0.25% per quarter of a net asset test. The performance fee is calculated as 20% of the increase in net asset value over a 6 month or 12 month period taking into consideration distributions made over that period (subject to an overall cap of #1.25 million) and the minimum amount due.) Murray Johnstone is also entitled to receive an annual administrative and secretarial fee of #50,000 per annum.

Seems generous to me : is this £1.25 million per 6 months or per 12 months? There is also plenty of scope for 'wobbling' the NAV. Put it down one six month period and up the next. 20% of the uplift goes to the manager. Can I have a slice please?

[a0002577] 12/5/2005 17:47

Energyi : you might find the fool quite interesting : its free to register.

[a0002577] 12/5/2005 16:46

energyi : busy thread you've got going here.

If you go over to the Fool and mail me off the Venture Capital thread, I will give you a better way to buy companies than from VCT managers. VCTs can only get minority stakes so if you buy from them you will get just that - and if you are going to buy a company you need a majority stake. Also VCT Managers are greedy somethings

[energyi] 12/5/2005 15:04

You never know...

And I wont find out unless I approach them.
I have a large friendly investor who may work with me on this

= = =
TEMP

Charts etc.
MVC Murray VCT.. : 22.5 28.3 £ 6.37m 36.40 -38.2%
MRV Murray VCT 2 : 29.5 35.5 £10.47m 43.50 -32.2%
MYV Murray VCT 3 : 35.5 39.9 £14.18m 56.10 -36.7%
MUV Murray VCT 4 : 48.5 37.7 £18.31m 73.70 -34.2%
...Murray VCT (MVC).. : ......VCT2 (MRV)..... : ......VCT3 (MYV)..... : ......VCT4 (MUV).....

[energyi] 12/5/2005 15:01

Have you seen my idea on the other VCT thread?

[benw99] 12/5/2005 15:00

ah ok i get you. Perhaps, and if you were loaded. I doubt many will liquidate. yes many have 10 year clause at which point it will be put to vote, but I cannot see the directors giving up their salaries and many portfolios will never be completely able to wind down. megers will be the way forward imo.

[currypasty] 12/5/2005 14:59

Hi E, I researched them alot at the time of starting the thread, and came to the conclusion i was better off with self select EIS eligable shares, which give 40% CGT, and 20% income tax relief as well.