Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[a_game] 22/8/2017 20:58

luckyorange - as I said at the beginning I rarely check these boards, mostly use twitter these days.

For me, nothing has changed - I note the share price decline with (selfishly) a happy face as I'm still waiting on other shares to do their thing before adding here. Neill still has my full confidence. It takes a long time to develop a solid business let alone one trying to sell cutting edge tech.

It's very clear to me that they have the tech and are talking to many huge corps. These big corps don't make decisions overnight. They will have to take samples, do tests etc etc - takes months, if not years. I know what the process is for including software in OEM handsets (e.g. samsung etc) - it can be a multi year process just for that.. and that's not hardware!

Once an order lands (and it will, I'm pretty confident of that) the share price will begin to adjust significantly imo. AIM is all about picking good companies (only a few of those around) and patience. Don't chase rainbows!

[sandbag] 22/8/2017 20:36

"Now who would think someone apparently on the sector could be so far off to think they could get a new range rover, top spec for £80."

Would you please send me their name and contact details as I have this lovely bridge in London I would like to sell them :-)

[superg1] 22/8/2017 19:45

Rid

CVD is very expensive and it more about chip grade attempts.

BTW

I made a mistake re the Landrover price it should have read £80.

Now who would think someone apparently on the sector could be so far off to think they could get a new range rover, top spec for £80.

[rogerbridge] 22/8/2017 14:35

For what it is worth, I agree inks will probably be first.

[ridicule] 22/8/2017 14:35

One of the reasons for my frustration with VRS, not just dead money tied up, is the mass of worldwide activity going on to become first mover. VRS need to get more momentum behind them. I accept we are not fully exposed to exactly what they are doing, but it would appear that nothing has been significant enough to warrant an RNS during 2017. The rest of the world are not just sitting on the sidelines and here is just one example:

" A group of Researchers at the University of Illinois at Urbana’s Department of Mechanical Science and Engineering have recently published their study in the Journal of Materials Chemistry which describes a new and sustainable approach to transfer graphene and recycle the copper substrate used in the production of graphene.
Sung Woo’s team utilized carbon dioxide for the process of electrochemical reduction of the interlayer between the substrate layer and the graphene formed by the chemical vapor deposition (CVD).1 Woo’s team of Researchers also utilized inexpensive food grade ethyl cellulose as a thin film handling layer for the transfer process instead of the polymeric thin films that are used in traditional processes1. This inexpensive and environmentally friendly method described here could be an answer for large scale production of graphene.
Since its isolation in 2004, the world’s first two-dimensional material (2D), graphene, continues to gain a tremendous amount of interest among Researchers and Industries around the world.2 This nanoscale allotrope of carbon, whose structure resembles a hexagonal honey comb lattice of carbon atoms, is extremely light, yet incredibly strong and transparent, while also acting as a great conductor2.
Due to these special properties, along with its impressive flexibility and durability, graphene can be used in a variety of applications including water purification technologies, electronics, wearable technology, energy storage devices and many more2.
Among the several ways to prepare graphene monolayers, the CVD process is by far the most popular one. The CVD process utilizes carrier gases to deposit gaseous reactants onto substrates, such as copper, in a reaction chamber set at ambient conditions to produce high quality, extremely thin films of graphene. Although this process facilitates in the production of high quality graphene, there are some challenges associated with the CVD process of making it.
Of these include difficulties in the formation of uniform layers of graphene on the substrate and the separation or exfoliation of graphene from the substrate layer without damaging the structure of graphene. Typical separation processes employ solvents including harmful acids are used to dissolve the substrate, which could compromise the quality of graphene due to the possibility of residues left behind.
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Sung Woo’s team from the University of Illinois used carbon dioxide as a precursor to form carbonic acid, which was found to help in the electrochemical under-etching of the copper oxide (Cu2O) interlayer present between the copper catalyst substrate and the graphene layer deposited by the CVD process. This process eliminates the need to use harmful chemicals for exfoliation, while also preserving the copper substrate that could be recycled for developing more graphene layers on top of it.
While traditional CVD processes that employ harmful chemicals to dissolve the substrate require several subsequent rinsing steps to remove any residue of substrates, this new approach developed here need not require any rinsing steps as the substrate is not dissolved.
Sung Woo’s team used food grade ethyl cellulose as a thin film handle layer for the transfer process of the graphene sheets. While traditional transfer processes utilize polymeric thin films, such as polycarbonate or poly methyl methacrylate (PMMA) that require use of toxic and carcinogenic solvents to solvate them, this new approach utilizes environmentally benign and inexpensive ethyl cellulose, which could be simply solvated by ethanol.
Ethyl cellulose not only makes the process eco-friendly and inexpensive, but it is also compatible with a variety of polymeric and soft biological materials including plastics and hydrogels used in the process.
After the transfer process of graphene is completed, the carbonic acid used here evaporates by forming carbon dioxide and water requiring no further rinsing or washing saving water and valuable time while also saving a lot of money because the copper substrate could be reused and there is no need for the use of any harmful chemicals for solvating the substrate.
Overall, this novel process is inexpensive, cleaner, environmentally friendly and could be suitable for large-scale, therefore suggesting that this method has the potential to finally take the graphene production from laboratory scale to industrial scale."

[vasilis] 22/8/2017 14:06

rid

We have a raft of individual NDAs. Why do you think that companies entered into them and what do you think that these companies are doing with their graphene samples? VRS provides independent verification of specification so the graphene can confidently be used for lab testing and prototype make up 'straight out of the tin' so to speak.

These companies are well aware of the potential impact that 'first mover advantage' may make in their respective industries with regard to graphene based offerings - thus the significant number of companies which our CEO has said have approached VRS these last few months. You only have to look at the number of conferences that have taken place over the last year - some of which NR has attended - to know that there is a lot going on at the moment.

Having said that, I quite agree - depending on the industry and company - that things will not happen just like that for ANY company. However, my point is that unless you have something to say of actual commercial value, then in my view RNSs of the 'Company X has a new best friend with Company Y so from now on they will be holding hands in the playground' kind cuts no ice with me and I cannot think of any finance director that I have worked with who would give anything more than a cynical 'yeah yeah, but let's see their money' response either to such PR.

Oh, and as regards conductive inks, from what I see I'm betting that something will break sooner rather than later - though whether with VRS or not we shall have to wait and see.

[superg1] 22/8/2017 13:30

AGM news

Did I read that right. I'm busy and using a phone.

Did it say invite to site visit today.

EG You can visit us today.

If so. What frigging chance has anyone got of arranging/planning for such a visit???

[superg1] 22/8/2017 13:28

Lucky

I've got a personal invite from the nomad compliance team, CEO and to discuss it with the the IP group.

While I'd love to I'd have to caution them first imo.

FYI and others I've done long reports to the FCA alleging various things and have made that clear.

The share price tumble on AGM virtually exactly matches the timing of my report to the FCA. Nomad aware, so who has been selling?

I wasn't going to mention FCA but told them if they don't react quickly I'll
mention it.

Look at it from my point of view.

If I am right about things they said it's material and the delay of notification on that has dragged on.

So if I'm right are the FCA complicit in delaying material news.

I have asked them.

[superg1] 22/8/2017 13:22

This is a fair example on the scale lack of knowledge.

Yeah mate no problem I can get you a new top spec range rover for £800.

That assumes it's an alien who has no idea re car prices but likes the look of them.

The one promising also doesn't know the price but has suggested £800.

Now imagine you have news about deals with such Aliens.

What happens when you then contact Landrover for prices.

As said that's a fair example.

The naivety, fraud and BS in the market never ceases to amaze me and is very hard to comprehend on the level of incompetence.

[superg1] 22/8/2017 13:16

Ok

Breaking cover.

Have you any idea what certain companies (not producing high quality graphene) think the price is to acquire it.

If you knew then you'd be fearful of what promises they have made to others begore getting facts.

One end is astronomically different to the other.

Then why no rns about 7 redundancies for a lost contract.

With such companies on such low revenues 7 staff sounds material for the contract.

Anyway that will also come put in the wash and it's not for public discussion on the finer details.

[ridicule] 22/8/2017 12:26

Shavian I fully agree with your points. I still believe the odds are that VRS will be the better bet a year from now which is why I am invested in VRS and not Haydale. That does not make me any happier with the business development rate of progress VRS are making in what is a very dynamic market opportunity.

[ridicule] 22/8/2017 12:21

Vasilis I was only talking about Haydale because at least they have activity underway on the ground and their share price has held up. Do you really seriously think that when VRS announce that one of their NDAs becomes a signed agreement to proceed with something that they will instantly produce a revenue stream? No there will then be the gestation periods to get into production. The very gestation periods that you are criticising Haydale for. VRS need to start producing some tangible signs of progress, whether we are talking copper foam, nanene or the inks.

[vasilis] 22/8/2017 10:57

rid,

Do you know of any bank manager that accepts RNS publicity announcements instead of 'readies'? No - neither do I.

Take Haydale's much trumpeted co-operation with Huntsman in an RNS dated 28 Nov 2016 -

'Over the past 12 months, HCS and Huntsman have been jointly working on the development of graphene enhanced masterbatches and resin formulations with significant performance enhancements in terms of improved fracture toughness and thermal conductivity. After further development work to optimise both product performance and manufacturing processes, Huntsman's resins enhanced with Haydale's graphene technology will be evaluated by targeted customers looking to benefit from the fracture toughness or thermal conductivity property improvements. Assuming successful customer trials, there will be visibility of significant revenue potential as Huntsman's customers realise the value of these graphene enhanced materials.'

Note especially the words 'over the last 12 months' - ie the RNS was not announcing something just about to start. Things had been going on for 12 months.

Now fast forward to 19 July 2017 - ie 8 months after the above RNS and now some 20 months since the start of the joint working according to Haydale themselves we have this -

'Huntsman Corporation Agreement update

As previously reported in December 2016 and February 2017, the customer sampling process with Huntsman Corporation ('Huntsman') for graphene infused Araldite(R) epoxy resin has taken longer than either party originally anticipated. Haydale's investment into research for this exclusive collaboration continues and the Board is encouraged by its progress which, in addition to improving the Group's industry and product know-how, enables Haydale to target new customers already using Huntsman's epoxy resins while Huntsman continues its evaluations.'


If I was a shareholder in Haydale I think I would want to know WHY things have taken 'longer than either party originally anticipated'. Why is there no further clarification on this and WHY no information on when things will be fixed?

So no - from a personal point of view I'd rather have things progressing under NDAs as in VRS's case until there is something to say that can at some point be counted in the P&L. Reading about some new 'hand-holding' similar to the example shown above where you can plainly see that after 21 months and counting - no mention in today's RNS so that's another month you can add on in my book - no further concrete progress has been publicly stated from what I can see in the Haydale/Huntsman JV.

Good luck to them - but 'hand-holdings' count for diddly squat in my book until they are converted into real money to keep the accountants - not the PR guys - happy.

[ridicule] 22/8/2017 09:39

This is an extract from a Haydale announcement this morning:

Ray Gibbs CEO of Haydale commented: "The work conducted over the past two years in mixing, dispersing and processing of a range of nanomaterials into high end epoxy resins is now enabling us to add significant value to the traditional composite offerings that have been available for many years. The speed at which RAC has moved and their ability to attract exciting commercial projects makes this an obvious partner for Haydale to demonstrate our added value capabilities. We look forward to working with the RAC on what is a very exciting collaboration."

Simon Rogers, CEO of RAC commented: "RAC is a design led composite manufacturing facility that is intent on adopting new technologies in the early stages of development. The opportunity to work with Haydale and their new graphene and other Nano products fits very well with our company philosophy and we believe this new collaboration will be the beginning of a long-term relationship. This is a very exciting stage in the new graphene age and we are delighted to be part of it with Haydale."

I thought Neil aquired his components company to create scenarios just like this!!

I remain critical of the lack of VRS newsflow during 2017, given the fast moving space that Graphene nano applications occupy. I am unfortunately on holiday when the agm is held, but I hope some of you ask some very searching questions on where their business development momentum sits if you are attending.

[festario] 22/8/2017 09:23

..... or do any anything with RNS's. Anyway, one lives in hope.

[phoenixs] 22/8/2017 09:15

One thing is for sure about VRS. The company does not mislead investors with false RNSs unlike some other companies on the AIM.

[luckyorange] 22/8/2017 07:38

Haydale and AGM keeping the market informed , I wonder if superg is going on the site visit to AGM ;-)?

[superg1] 20/8/2017 21:50

I recalled seeing the Zero gravity tests before and they cover the heat loops mentioned as one aspect but they didn't mention it was ink back then.

hxxp://horizon2020projects.com/excellent-science/graphene-flagship-test-space-applications/

[superg1] 20/8/2017 21:45

Cambridge Graphene talking about test with graphene inks. Perhaps it's one of the many tests VRS are involved with.
I can't be sure but that one photo looks like the VRS Microfluidization machine that we say on Cambridge day.

16th August

hxxps://graphene-flagship.eu/material/Zero%20Gravity%20Graphene/Satellite%20Heat%20Pipes/Pages/Blog-Yarjan-Samad.aspx

[festario] 20/8/2017 13:50

Amen to that SuperG, get your invoice for consultation services in... nail PRG, then we can start on Sable Mining.They still pretend to exist!

[phoenixs] 20/8/2017 10:09

Superg1, ENRT ENVIRONMENTAL TECHNOLOGIES took shareholders for a complete ride.

The then Finance director said at an AGM "when we run out of money we will get some more from the shareholders"

The nomad was aware of a lot of what was going on.

There was even a funding offer made by some investors about 8 months before the company went down which could well have resulted in the company becoming a commercial enterprise. Lo and behold directors/company secretary linked to major bond/convertible holders etc turned down the offer.

[festario] 19/8/2017 21:43

BazzerP, nice to see you recovered from that. I've felt sick quite often on some days with major losses on OXS, GKP, IOF and FOGL. But never more than 20%?of my portfolio.Meldex was an out and out fraud wasn't it?

[bazzerp] 19/8/2017 19:52

Reassuring to hear of other failures.
My big loss was Meldex, that nearly cost me my home. ;-(