Versarien Share Discussion Threads

[superg1] 06/8/2017 22:40

News just out re a graphene scam as reported by Andre Geim.

It just shows the lengths some will go to re graphene hype. The Chinese too, now who would have thought they would do such a thing :-).

As you will see the graphene claims are of course false and in fact it's not graphene at all as stated just graphite.

Good fun though on the claims.

[superg1] 06/8/2017 20:03

No JH as NDAs are not material on share price moves and therefore don't trigger an RNS.

While you and I know if they put out a list of the multi £billion companies aims talking to them via news then it would very likely move the share price

NDAs as said by the CEO are worthless. They become worth something when NDAs move to material MOUs JVs and the like.

As the CEO said he could put out news every week about new collaborations but what is the point in that.

I do note some do that but then some of those also lie in other news. They like hype.

I did chuckle at one recently that compared their gains saying it was X amount better than current commercially available products.

So if someone can show me a list what graphene related products are produced in bulk for worldwide sales for any product then I'd like to know.

So no the Cambridge lot are not barred in any way the info is not material in nomad or company terms. Some do like to name them all though in news but that is up to them. It does help some that have no viable business in the short term but they will be found out in the end.

At Cambridge we were also told (as I have said before) that Carbide had a new defence sales the first order of which had been paid for. Then another product for Aerospace where first supplies are expected Sept 17.

I did discuss some of those and it was said in at least one case due to the underlying circs of how it came about (being vague there) that the company thought it should be in an RNS but the Nomad said no.

It's a point I raise. There is no way the Nomad would want VRS telling PIs what lies behind that.

If that were known and was slipped onto a BB then I'm sure the Nomad would rapidly change their mind and an RNS would appear.

They like it both ways. One that they decide its not material and no rns but also that no one should be told even though they deem it not material.

Why, because in some cases of lies underneath the share price could fly and then you have the same issue as an NDA if things don't fully materialise.

So the it will be officially known who VRS are talking to is if one or more of them turns into something greater than a NDA, at which point probably is something to get excited about.

I think nomads are very bad news for Aim companies and that rule should be abolished. After all they are wholly incompetent in identifying frauds. Th fact a nomad is there makes some think news must therefore be correct.

Without names I think PIs would do a lot more of their own research and may not get sucked in so easily.

As the MM said to me on investor day when I said 90% of nomads are bent. He corrected me saying 100% and he said so with a very stern look on his face.

I haven't been tracking or invested in a share yet where I think the nomad is straight.

Think of it this way nothing can get announced without going through the nomad first. So if a big name does end up as a deal the Nomad will know first. If you think inside info rules stops them and mates you'd be mistaken. I say that with great confidence having direct live experience of what they do at times.

[john henry] 06/8/2017 17:52

Superg would that make those that attended the Cambridge day potential insiders, as they will have been exposed to information (NDAs) not available to the public that did not attend the Cambridge day. Therefore those peeps that attended the CD should not be able to purchase shares until said information is available to the public.

[superg1] 06/8/2017 16:16

BTW

Tata have gone down the RGO route and direct coating through heating because they have found failure elsewhere.

It's mentioned in the patents. So whatever they tried early on didn't work for the metal coating results they wanted.

That doesn't mean the NGI/UOM won't come up with something or have already.

I suspect Tata are not just looking down their own barrel for an answer either.

[superg1] 06/8/2017 16:12

Lucky on the who is on the NDA list.

I and others raised that it was frustrating to know they were talking to so many but no idea who. I don't know if that was instrumental in them showing some names on Cambridge day but they also asked the names were not posted.

As it was most attending don't view ADVFN or other such sites so the risk is small re posts appearing.

I don't think many NDAs will actually say "You can't name us" but considering NDAs are vehicles to talk to each other and share information under a protective cloak it wouldn't be good to say too much on the subject considering it's confidential.

EG by saying we are talking to say Pear about graphene may P off Pear who didn't want competitors to know they have plans re graphene.

Then from the VRS point of view why mention names publicly in the NDA stage. It can create false hope for investors and unnecessarily put any NDA at risk. It also puts pressure on the BOD to get the deal. As we can often see on many Aims the share price then runs way with itself on hype re a big name when no deal as such is in the bag as yet.

I'm sure NDas will consist of companies having a fix or gain they need, or a new product. In the early stages it's about seeing if graphene can provide the fix/new product. That along with the matrix of cost for mass production to see if it's viable.

I am sure that's what has been happening on the NDAs (lots of them)


If those things fit then then there is a fair chance a deal will appear.

As said graphene (Nanane) is fixing some things I didn't even know there was a problem with. Once you know of the problem then the picture looks bigger.

Companies don't talk about unfixable problems. The limit had been hit in many cases. Graphene has opened doors to fixes where I didn't know there were faults.

Hence there are many large companies talking to VRS because they have shown they have a graphene that works and which they can produce on a large scale if needed.

Then add on that they are integrated into the world leading research centres. It makes VRS the perfect starting point to get answers for the fixes or new products planned.

Not hype and BS. The right answer to the question through VRS into the NGI, UOM and Cambridge.

[superg1] 06/8/2017 15:37

Tata

Currently it's an idea with plans to move to 20 tonnes per year but first comes the panning to do the THEN IF THEY GET PLANNING another year to sort.

I haven't gone through the patent yet to see exactly what comes out the other end but it's synthetic and from Shellac.

Hovere to get 20 tonnes this is the ingredients list. Note it's not 20 tonnes of graphene

Shellac 200 tonnes
Coal tar 20 tonnes.
Formaldehyde 300,000 litres
Cyclohexylamine 240,000 litres
Epichlorohydrin (Epoxy) 1,240,000 litres
Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) 6,600,000 litres
BYK 3441 600,000 litres
10 tonnes of intercalated graphite.

Going on the fluid levels and using water as the base case there seem to be 1000's of tonnes of liquid involved if we go by their reference of kL when listing the liquids.

EG It says IPA 6600 kL

It all seems rather excessive to me, even the shellac is 10 times the end result.

[superg1] 06/8/2017 15:06

Tata

Vrs do get a mention in the Tata report along with 4 others.

EG as in their report

Table 1-4 shows a list of companies who are actively working on graphene and its products.

Ceal tech who they list for single layer

VRS for composites

Haydale, Graphenea and nano explore.

That's their entire list so it shows the limited knowledge of graphene by Tata.

Then they say

The work done at Tata Steel R&D shows that
A. The trials using graphene show promising results. This has given adequate
confidence to pursue this opportunity and set up a small production unit as a pilot
project.

In the report they list the patent which is a process to produce synthetic graphene and it's seems specifically for coating of steel and metals. They comment about failures using some methods.

I don't think anyone has bothered to read it and understand the patent. I've been away on holiday so couldn't go through it but will now.

[superg1] 06/8/2017 13:57

FEST

Good idea.

I think purple bricks is a dud having looked at it when it came out. I haven't seen the watchdog item but my issue was that once the game unwound there would be some disgruntled folk.

No doubt it was going to be a mad sales pitch type frenzy with too good an offer, 'buy now pay later etc'

So once enough of those sounds through the 100% good press would eventually be hit with the bad.

EG knowing usual percentage rates and the fee, I couldn't understand how low value properties would be on purple bricks as sale or no sale they would end up paying at some point.

[festario] 05/8/2017 22:33

SuperG, I took some cash from my losing position here (about 25%), to chase Purple Bricks, who had a massive fall due to a bad review on BBC Watchdog. I made a nice 14% in 2 days, and popped some money back in here... just in case.The rest, into my beloved GVC.

[anley] 05/8/2017 18:05

Yes the AGM date has been agreed and the company is just waiting on confirmation from venue.

So an announcement will be due soon.................

[luckyorange] 05/8/2017 15:31

Do I take it that the Cambridge visit etc; where NDA's were discussed is classed as inside information? Doubt it , everyone and their aunty will know that information by now lol.

Real inside information is who they have sold to, what orders are in the pipeline, how much cash the company has and what plans they have for the future.... isn't it?

[luckyorange] 05/8/2017 14:43

Missed a lot out there supernum although the coating part is in there which of course is multilayer so a totally different market.

I also note that there is no mention of Talga in their future plan, no previous experience of producing graphene using a furnace (which I believe are very expensive to start up and run) and no intention of employing others in the proposed graphene side of the business.

It's a good idea to recycle waste from the steel side but a hell of a lot to prove up yet!

[serratia] 05/8/2017 13:54

Here are the top 10 steel companies.

hxxps://www.steel-technology.com/articles/steel-producing-companies-of-the-world

Apart from TATA only 2 seem to be into Graphene.

hxxps://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2016/03/chinese-steel-giant-gives-stamp-of-approval-aussie-universities

This list is interesting.

hxxps://graphene-flagship.eu/new-partners-approved

[superg1] 05/8/2017 13:22

Just a point

Tata are number 7 in the world of steel guys in terms of size there are bigger companies in that sector.

[superg1] 05/8/2017 12:57

Pc

You asked Tata and it came up as someone mentioned them.

On the Cambridge day VRS showed 7 names they have NDAs with and said they have over 100.

NDAs are worthless as we know and they are not material until they turn into material collocations MOUs and so on.

I can see how many would involve no initial sales at all and I'm reluctant to give a fictitious example of X doing Y with graphene because VRS are doing so much with so many that there is a risk it may be right.

I hadn't even though of some of the uses and potential going on and if it turns into something I'm sure we will hear about it.

So back to the 7 names. I know many times that through lot's of research and digging but it's not suitable to post them.

But here is a short list of the types of industry they talking too most of which it seems cold called VRS. It's not comprehensive but gives an idea.

Space.
Aerospace.
Auto
Chemicals.
Metals.
Power generation.
Composites (for that there is a range of different types)
Holdhold goods.
Printing
Sports
Power storage/generation
Medical
Defence
Electronics (various types)

There are gains being made by graphene that I didn't even know was relevant or was an aspect that needs a fix.

Those new things will be new to VRS too and unanticipated. With tech maxed out in many areas graphene is opening doors and unlike some I think do the the large gains that can be made on many fronts then graphene will be in 1000's of products in the future.

First of all comes the tests phases to see what gains can be made which may include collaborations/MOUs/JVs/stake taking/licensing/funding and various other options which some such big names have done in the past when they think they have found a viable graphene company.

Am easy one to pick on for examples is XG sciences.

DOW, Samsung, Posco, Cabot and Hanwah chemical.

XG as a first mover caught their eye but most now know it was a bit of a con as much of it is many layer and doesn't work as demonstrated in many scientific papers. Such hype as an early mover then makes it more difficult for others claiming they have graphene.

Some think graphene doesn't work and it's largely because they were sold graphite as graphene.

[superg1] 05/8/2017 12:20

WSH

JH I don't have the time to go through others and imo have no need too either as I'll do fine right here.

You don't need any sales at all to see an share price fly off north. There are various angles for material news.

I see some have sold for various reasons and just with 3 comments it's 300k plus shares.

The time people want to buy is when the news is good which is generally exactly the point shares are hard to come by. Obviously entry points if looking for lower prices are hard to call and the lower it goes the more shares on intended cash purchase buys which compounds the issue to get in.

Some comments are clearly about chasing other things short term. I get hot tips all the time and over the years have had some seriously hot tips right from the front but as yet I can't think of 1 of the 100's that has proved to be correct.

I kept so quiet about one I wouldn't even tell a very close friend. Then it became apparent the highly confidential information was known by a whole bunch who barely knew the source. That explained the share price hike.

Quite embarrassing for him to learn from folk he didn't know yet I chatted about he company in detail prior and didn't mention 'IT'.

So you can be assured that there are a whole host of 'ITs' about VRS that I have told no one.

In fact the more things you know the less enthusiastic you can be on the share you post on. You are better off knowing nothing.

On some in the past some thought I was posting inside info with knowledge of it. Research and logic on the info which I had no idea was true. Hence sometimes I have unwittingly forced an RNS or two on some shares.

It's a funny old game I'm waiting for an RNS on one that should Imo happen as the information that should lead to that has been handed on a aptly to the necessary people.

If not never gets dealt with I'll be kicking up a right old stick in certain sectors. I've already had compliance folk trying to engage me on it.

[supernumerary] 05/8/2017 11:54

lucky - actually I have, and I reproduce it below for your edification. Sounds to me like they're either making it themselves, or buying it from Talga pending inhouse production. On which subject they also said: 'A graphene development cell has been set up at Jamshedpur to identify applications and establish new businesses (production units, supply chain and markets).' Sounds like a competitor to me...

Tata Steel to put first graphene product on the market
Aug 01, 2017

Tata Steel's first graphene-based product is in the market - the company has announced the launch of ready-made graphene-coated stirrups, named Tiscon Superlinks+. Tata Steel's vice-president (steel & marketing), said when four columns are built, the support link is normally supplied by a local mason, which is made of steel. "But, it usually rusts. We have changed that by coating it with graphene."

Superlink+ reportedly has enhanced corrosion resistance and better bonding strength than other stirrups in the market. Tata Steel has filed seven patent applications in this area of work.

A graphene development cell has been set up by the Company to identify applications and establish new businesses (production units, supply chain and markets). Two advanced material research centers have been established. One is at Chennai, in collaboration with the Indian Institute of Technology there. The other is at Bengaluru, with the Center for Nano and Soft Matter Sciences.

The Company commented that as long as graphene is used as a value-add in steel, Tata Steel could work on it. For other applications, it would have to approach other companies.

In April 2014, Tata Steel signed a strategic partnership with the UK's Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC) to co-develop graphene-coated steel and other innovations. In November 2015, Tata and Talga Resources signed a collaboration agreement to explore opportunities in graphene supply, processing and applications. In May 2016, TS announced its intention to start manufacturing graphene, moving away from a steel company to a materials production company.

[luckyorange] 05/8/2017 07:12

You haven't read it then supernum, Tata is a few years away from producing it yet ;-).

[supernumerary] 04/8/2017 19:41

Look more like a competitor to me.

Wonder if they've got one of those famous NDAs, and why? So they can do a bit of competitive benchmarking? No, surely not...

[luckyorange] 04/8/2017 16:55

'pcjoe4 Aug '17 - 11:47 - 5081 of 5087 0 0
Someone here claims that Tata have a connection to VRS - anyone got a link to that info please?'


No joe :-)

They do mention vrs in their report as a producer, but that's it as far as I know.

[tim3416] 04/8/2017 16:35

Well my top up showing as a sell too... I don't think we will have to wait long for news. Neill seems quiet at the moment so hoping things are brewing behind scenes. Keep the faith folks