Uil Investors - UTL

Uil Investors - UTL

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Stock Name Stock Symbol Market Stock Type
Uil Limited UTL London Ordinary Share
  Price Change Price Change % Stock Price Last Trade
0.00 0.0% 274.00 01:00:00
Open Price Low Price High Price Close Price Previous Close
274.00 274.00 274.00 274.00 274.00
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cc2014: I think the why is explainable. It was apparent to them that they were struggling to get the 28's away and the share price discount remains. It must be frustrating for the major shareholders, especially if some of them are looking for an exit with indices at all time highs. On the other hand these Edison research notes are very helpful to investors, comparatively cheap to produce and I suspect it may be nothing more than that. The daily NAV is a good thing too and I'm personally now very frustrated with some IT's, for example M&G that only report every 3 months, or every month but 3 weeks after the month end. In this fast moving world I'm not interested in investing in a Trust that can only be bothered to work out the numbers so slowly (unless of course I know the underlying has moved in which case their slow pace I'll take advantage of) As you know I passed on the 28's, mostly because I felt 5.75% just wasn't enough when everything was taken into consideration. Sure, it's a great rate in 2021 but I'm not so sure it will look so great in 2023 onwards. Time will tell. Also, the underlying investments carry a level of risk which personally makes me feel uncomfortable. I recognise I am more risk adverse than most investors. Also, I have 26s so that kind of added slightly to my views. I think we can sucessfully argue they nearly pitched it about perfectly as they just about got the issue away although it seems Shore Capital are using "their best endeavours" to shift the last lump. I suspect tbh Shore Capital haven't shifted all of them and they are sitting on them, as surprise, surprise it is them at are sitting on the bid at 101p today and on all the others.
vacendak: htTps://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/UTL/daily-nav-announcements/14881633 Daily updates for the NAV. The last three independent small investors on the register will be pleased to get more information. :)
vacendak: Currently reading the HY report: "UIL is taking steps to create a 2028 ZDP share class with the view to offering the opportunity to 2022 ZDP shareholders to roll into the 2028 ZDP shares and enabling investors who were cashed out in full under the 2020 ZDP redemption last year the opportunity to reinvest." So this is a halfway house result: * They are not phasing out the ZDPs. * They are not extending their lives to 8 years as was the plan a few years ago when they created the 2026s at the same time of the rollover from 2018s to 2024s.
morton2011: Good luck Specto. UTL remain like a flickering candle to my investor moth. I sold out last year and the price has kept rising so what do I know! One thing to watch out I learnt in the last 10 years there is no support for any volume when ICM decide to stop or perhaps cannot support the share price. The Saville shareholding keeps edging up and there are no independent voices or investors I have seen in that period. An unknown is how much of that shareholding is on loan to banks, definitely some as various RNS expose over the years. If the NAV price starts falling then the share price goes down even faster with the leverage. If you might need the cash short term be wary as its so thinly traded, in the long term should be ok.
vacendak: Yeah the markets.ft.com entries indeed miss 80% of the holders, but this is the best I can think of to get some info on shareholder ownership. I have had a quick look at the UIL Finance annual and half-year reports, but they do not list who owns the ZDPs. UIL Finance is 100% owned by UIL Ltd... and that is it. I would disagree on the not being small investor bit in the sense it is unlikely that only one or two big institutional investor would hold much. The shares have no voting power so unlikely to be owned by big whales. The ZDPs are most likely spread thinly across a wide array of accounts run by IFAs. In small amount, they provide ballast in a portfolio with reasonably small risk. About requiring a big effort to repay the 2022, I had forgotten that the 2020s would have gone already, thus reduced gearing, which would increase the cover of the 2022, 2024 and 2026. In turn, with an improved 2026 cover, they should be able to sell them on the market at a likely premium - assuming the Wuhan virus is behind us by then of course - to help repay the 2022. Further down the line, the 2024 and 2026 would then be easier to repay assuming they can afford to wipe out the earlier bigger ZDP issues. Still, my bet is on an exceptional/not-really-planned redemption for the 2020s due to the current background situation. I would expect them to at least rollover part of the 2022 in a year and a half from now. Now... Will I have the balls to manually rollover the proceeds of my 2020s into ZDP 2026s? :)
morton2011: Thanks for the links - less than 20% are institutional so who owns the other 80%? cannot be small investors. They have said in the past they want to keep gearing below 100% and narrow the gap between NAV and share price Repaying the ZDP from selling some assets does both
morton2011: The 2026 zdp they hold in 'treasury' always been a bit of a mystery to me as to how they worked. If they never paid for them originally then when sold at a premium in the market they create a small profit and cash for the company alongside a matching liability so NAV goes up slightly. If they sell them now in the market create a loss and NAV goes down. In October they need cash to pay back the 2020 zdp that do not roll over. £59 million if no one wants to roll over. Looking at the 2026 zdp price it's a brave investor who wants to roll over to the end of the debt chain without a yield over 10%.All UIL need to do is demonstrate the NAV they publish is correct and sell down 10% of their portfolio for cash. Repay the 2020 in full, the NAV will stay the same and the discount will reduce as we all have confidence in the valuations.The delayed sale of Ascendant group would be very helpful at this point and maybe they are expecting this.
morton2011: https://wcsecure.weblink.com.au/Clients/zetaresources/headline.aspx?headlineid=6961227Vaguely interesting to keep following UIL. Zeta was suspended because the auditor did not agree with how ICM value their investments and would not sign off the accounts. Results published eventually in December and at AGM, 0700 on a Monday in Nassau.. surprise surprise the auditor reelection opposed by Mr Saville. Zeta been lent yet more money by UIL in last month. UIL end up picking up the bill as have to lend to Zeta to support panoramic (emergency) rights issue. The End of year report unlikely to show that the investments outside the 'platform's which are nice and easy to value being publicly traded all benefiting when UIL sell.Infratil up 2xAugean up 5xAfterpay up 3x in last year altho here UIL been selling on way up so taken some benefit and were very early investors. In June 2017 UIL owned 9.67 per cent which is worth around £450 million today. Resolute is a good hedge as pointed out.
morton2011: Right segment for UIL. Share buybacks do not make any profit for UIL for @ceasar info. They get cancelled at the price paid in the market. Its the shareholders who can profit as less shares owning the same assets should lift the share price. Challenge here is the assets are difficult to value. It will only help the share price as well if those holding shares know the company will buy if the discount is over a %. The moment they stop offering to buy the discount will reapply as its all the same assets, the debt will have gone up (or the gearing if they use cash in the bank which reduces the assets) and ICM will own well over 75% of the shares. So why would an investor want to hold the shares once the buyback completes? UIL will be in a poorer governance and value position than it is today from the point of view of a small shareholder.
vacendak: The short answer is they no longer care. The investment team, directly or indirectly, owns 60% of the company and they do not seem to mind. Also, it is one of the last few split-capital trusts around. The update to the rules some years ago forced them to count the ZDPs as "debt", making the whole thing appear ultra-leveraged, which in a way it is. They are now "happy" that the gearing is below 100%. Were the ZDPs to disappear or be reclassified as shares, I guess professional investors would buy. There was an update in the past (factsheet or report, I cannot remember) that mentioned that the buy-backs were adversely lowering the free float (whatever ICM/ICICM/etc. let people play with) which made the spread look even more horrible. As you can guess, a wide spread puts people off from dipping their toes. The NAV is also not that easy to estimate, it is not as bad as it used to be, but UTL holds a lot of stuff that, even if listed, is not traded that much; so again impeding the price discovery mechanism, wide spread, etc. The whole discount thing is therefore caught in a vicious circle. Absent a reorganisation of the capital structure, I do not see a way out of it. Ideally, if the NAV keeps on ticking up, it could attract "momentum" investors, so maybe, just maybe a subsequent share price catch up.
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