Tp Share Discussion Threads

[kiwihope] 18/5/2017 15:52

I must admit I haven't looked at TPG for a little while - it was only the falling price that caught my attention. And lo and behold, I see the new Options RNS.

In principle I do not object to options as a means of rewarding key personnel but I do not like it when they result in significant dilution of my shareholding. If all these options are exercised they will end up with about 10% of the company. That is a big chunk in my book. Management already earn a healthy salary plus bonus to do their job. Why do they need to reduce the value of my holding by 10% as well? Just to do the job they were hired to do.

The targets also look fairly tame to me. The first target at 9p and hardest at 12p doesn't look very difficult when the price was starting from 8p only a few days ago.

I don't like it... I don't like it at all.

[septblues] 16/5/2017 17:44

I'm surprised that the major shareholders have fallen for one of the oldest trick in the book.

There are any number of people who could run this company at a lower price

[larva] 11/5/2017 16:41

rhomboid9 May '17 - 22:23 - 2161 of 2181 5 0
Evening PA
I don't hold TP, but it's been on my watchlist for a while , you may not be bothered in the slightest but today's RNS puts TP in the uninvestable category for me. Options are fine , what isn't is changing the rules so blatantly when you fail to get the results you want, nor is the scale in anyway justifiab, basically shareholders have been mugged. I'm amazed that you're ok with having your pocket picked


well put

[chorister] 11/5/2017 16:34

I think the problem with options generally in companies like this is that in fact the company can do very little to influence the share price, which will be driven by much wider market factors. I actually wish they focused on managing the company and forgot about the share price - a well managed, sustainable profitable company will become more valuable anyway, and I'd much rather see the management incented towards that.

[timojelly] 11/5/2017 07:35

We could do with a new uptrend about now

[supernumerary] 10/5/2017 22:14

It's not often a post really does make me laugh out loud, so well done to eastbutnobutyestbutwestbut...

[pavey ark] 10/5/2017 21:34

Rhomboid, you're a bit off topic, the business hasn't been mentioned for some time here..... "interesting company" ....oh!! I say !!)

Only skimmed the latest mad rant above.
blah !! blah!! Cartmell bad, bad man, blah, blah !!

Been here before...often.. but the last time the share price was half of today's value,wonder if we'll meet up again when it doubles from here ?

[supernumerary] 10/5/2017 21:19

One last go round the mulberry bush...

Good governance usually says that NEDs should have neither options nor shares, but this is AIM so those rules don't apply - obviously they need the options so their interests are aligned with shareholders :¬|

At last you understand - the problem is with Cartmell setting himself targets, failing to meet them (despite having had since 2009 - 7+ years! - to do so), then without apology or by-your-leave, setting himself new ones that he thinks he can meet. At a fraction of the price of the previous options, which must have already been rebased from the 42p (!) at which they were originally set.

Cartmell is not the guy that saved Corac - that must be another Cartmell. The one I know wasted years and many millions of shareholder funds going nowhere with Corac, told porky after porky in RNS's, and finally buried it so he could resuscitate a business that operated at his modest (to be kind) level of competence - TP Group, aka Vega.

Put his hand in his pocket. A pocket that was filled by shareholders in endless wasted fund raisings. And how many of these share purchases were associated with trying to get yet another placing away? How many were forced on him by institutions who said they wouldn't back his latest pocket-filling exercise unless he also had some skin in the game? I suggest you go back through the RNS's and give us a number.

And now you think shareholders should accept this, because he's only going to get a quarter of a million extra for just doing his job. Good to see you're not entirely without a sense of humour.

Negative comments from non-holders. Tired, tired - the ball, not the man...

[rhomboid] 10/5/2017 20:27

Hi PA

"As usual most of the negative comments are coming from non holders."

Can't argue with that..and logically perhaps that is to be expected.

Good Luck TP is an interesting company

[pavey ark] 10/5/2017 19:59

First point is that for two of the three directors these are new and obviously perfectly normal and reasonable option allocations.
Previously only 250000 options were held by one director and no options were held by the other director so cancel the 250000 and set up the new options ...no problem.(or let him keep the 250000 .... but they didn't allow that)
The problem seems to be with the Cartmell options being cancelled and replaced with these new options.
As we know from the past Cartmell has come in for significant vilification here but he is the guy that saved Corac, bought the submarine business for under £10m, turned the company round completely and has always been willing to put his hand in his pocket and buy shares.... so he doesn't get the new options ?
I would suggest that the large shareholders here thought the new options were fair and reasonable but insisted he gave up his old options if he wanted the same option package as the other two.
And so to the new options:
If this management team manage to increase the share price over 9.1p for twenty days in the next year they may manage to sell their shares for say 9.5p/ 10.5p so between them they could share £240k for increasing the share price by 50% ( £15m)
As I said in a previous post, to keep a share price over 9.1p for twenty days it would have to be considerably higher and the prospect/ news flow would have to be very positive.
If any holder is looking to sell at 10.5p/11p I would be pretty sure that this would be possible before management could make any gain from these options.

As usual most of the negative comments are coming from non holders.

[rhomboid] 10/5/2017 15:35

Pavey, there is little argument over Options, they're fine, what isn't fine is re pricing them when you fail to achieve the target. That is wrong and doubly wrong when the amounts are so material.

I've missed out over the year or so this has been on my watchlist but I'm now ...you'll be pleased to hear..taking it off my watch list as I know now a little more about the Directors attitudes

[larry laffer] 10/5/2017 12:11

PA

I'm not making any criticism of the progress the company are making, however progress depends on where you set the baseline. I think a lot of investors are still investors here because they are still grossly underwater from purchases years ago.

What I do criticise is the lack of achievement when you measure them against their own self imposed targets. By that metric alone they have failed miserably.

Whats to stop them failing miserably again, not the new options surely. Everyone seems to assume its not a problem if they don't meet that target then we will just change the target until you do.

Simply if all the students fail to meet an A level staandard you have two choices

Lower the standard

or

Improve the tuition

I'll leave you to guess which one yields best results.

[trentendboy] 10/5/2017 10:54

Some good posts. Not too worried about repriced options - got to have realistic incentives and if they beat these numbers it is a decent return for us shareholders

[m1keg] 10/5/2017 08:36

I agree with Pavey on now how well run the company is, its turn aound and the potential long term growth.

I agree with everybody else that seemingly British top management cannot stop themselves from acting like pigs at a trough at every turn. Just how much money do you need to motivate yourself and why does one level below have to make do with a salary?.

[pavey ark] 10/5/2017 08:18

LL (I'm almost out the door) are you really suggesting that this management have failed ?

This company and the dynamics of the company have changed dramatically in the last few years.
I think we can all see that TPG bears hardly any resemblance to the Corac of old.
If you are going to use options a an incentive scheme I would rather they were relevant to the current situation.

We are where we are and things have gone well but if the management team manage to improve things to such an extent that the market cap rises by c. 50% (£17m) they will get £1.7m between them.

if you can't cope with that then sell the shares and be very careful what you buy to replace them.

[larry laffer] 10/5/2017 08:02

It does seem to make a farce of the options scheme when the "renumeration committee" simply change the qualifying criteria and number of options whenever the directors fail to meet their targets.

Targets they themselves set when they granted the options in the first place.

I'm all for reqarding success, but they should at least let the share options lapse if they don't meet their own targets, and set new realistic targets with new share options.

The guidelines for setting options need updating for all companies. I'd favour no options vesting at falling market caps and pro rata options for increasing market caps.

It seems a bit much to give away ( @7p ) 12.5% of your own company to employees who simply miss their milestone vesting schedule by a country mile.

[supernumerary] 10/5/2017 00:16

Poor old Pavey - just had his pocket picked and all he can think to say is that it's all right really because he thinks the pickpockets are good guys, and anyway worse has happened (at least in his imagination) to the poster who pointed out the offence.

Let's be clear - do you think that rebasing options is good? Or even acceptable in a well-run company? Do you think that the managers are entitled to do whatever they like as long as they've managed to drag the share price up a little from the historic lows they drove it down to?

As for issuing shares 'at or even in the money at the time of issue', you should look up the history - back in 2010 Cartmell bought 100K shares at 21.5p and gave himself 300K options at 21.75p. To add to the 2,000,000 options he'd already awarded himself in 2009, a month after arriving, at 42p. At the time, the share price was, you guessed it, 42p...

Will he ever get to cash in these options? Who knows, his record in that respect has so far been one of unremitting failure. Clearly he doesn't expect to be hitting the 10p mark very soon, or he wouldn't have bothered rebasing.

Mind you, looking at the quantities and prices of their cancelled options, it strikes me it may just be a habit - is it possible he's already had one rebasing? I think we should be told...

[pavey ark] 09/5/2017 23:36

Rhomboid, I don't think I said I was happy but the first tranche will certainly not be triggered unless the share price is comfortably above 9.1p and I suggest closer to 10.5p or 50% up on closing price.

What interests me is the loading of the option to the next three years and I feel certain that given the age of the CEO this is when things become interesting.

I have been saying that this was a good and undervalued company with excellent management and began to almost scream it when the price fell below 4p then 3p.

The share price has recovered and obviously the management believe it will continue to climb.

How long have you been watching TPG ?
Were you ever going to buy?

Let's get this into perspective though.
If the management team manage to cash out their options at say an average of 11p they will pocket a little over £1.7m between them but the value of the company will have increased by £17m and I can live with that.

Don't forget that the large institutions own most of this company and have put a lot of money in at 13p and 10p so it looks like they are happy enough with the incentives just announced or it would not have happened.

Before people whine about the large institutions I know that they are part of the system/ establishment but so are the shareholders so time to suck it up !!

[rhomboid] 09/5/2017 22:23

Evening PA
I don't hold TP, but it's been on my watchlist for a while , you may not be bothered in the slightest but today's RNS puts TP in the uninvestable category for me. Options are fine , what isn't is changing the rules so blatantly when you fail to get the results you want, nor is the scale in anyway justifiab, basically shareholders have been mugged. I'm amazed that you're ok with having your pocket picked

[glennborthwick] 09/5/2017 22:13

it pays though to keep an eye on this though. It doesn't seem demanding to me also