Seneca Growth Capital Vct Share Discussion Threads

[bladeboy] 06/12/2004 18:16

I originally bought these when they were Propan Homes and I only have the old Propan Homes certificate. Should I have received a new Honeygrove Group certificate when they became Honeygrove, or will my old one be OK?

cheers,

bb

[d8raider] 03/12/2004 08:18

I've been advised by Comdirect that 16th Dec is the changeover date - they will accept on my behlaf unless I deline the offer - anybody going to decline???

[ukhawk] 02/12/2004 13:49

There you have it. It all goes quiet and the HYG directors ride off into the sunset with big fat cheques.

[edmondj] 27/11/2004 20:41

I doubt it, more a case of waiting for Oakdene's annual report. Quick exit of the entire HYG board + auditors, wonder why!

[ukhawk] 27/11/2004 19:02

Edmundshaw, I agree with your sentiments entirely.
Do you know if HYG still have to release their end of year results now ? At least that would clarify how much information they have retained, rather than advise the market. The statement they did put out less than 2 weeks ago must have been a blatant cover-up. It seems to me they must have acted illegally, but I'm no legal expert. I'm still finding it hard to believe it's just incompetence - nobody can be that bad !

[edmundshaw] 27/11/2004 17:16

ukhawk, I'm out too.

Holding on amounts to being paid a small premium for fixing ones investment in OKD for the next few months, plus the (IMO) unlikely upside of a counter-offer.

The lack of information as to why this deal is going through smells bad to me; there are reasons but we aren't informed - after all we only co-own the bloody company!

It may well be worth hanging on, but for once I have lost patience (luckily not too much cash - speculative punts deserve only small investments IMO). I shan't be investing in this kind of small property company again FWIW - just looks like directors have little reason to put shareholders anywhere near the top of the list for information (or any other list). 6.75p/share is close enough for me to what I'm likely to get from OKD, it clears the smell from my study and I honestly don't want to be invested in OKD for the next 6 months...

Good luck to all holders - Edmund.

[hybrasil] 27/11/2004 14:20

Lord B and ukhawk.
No I am neither a director or an employee or happily in anyway related to this affair.
I have been to see Swaylands and its a fine site. HGH were trying very hard to sell it.
I have been watching Oakdene for some time. Its rare for a housebuilder to trade above Nav.I often look where Mr. Wray is involved and he was a substantial shaeholder in hgh and backed Oakdene.

[edmondj] 27/11/2004 08:15

Hmm... they might get ideas for pay rises! IMO, 20k rates as a marker for a belief in value, coming from an FD.

[rcturner2] 26/11/2004 21:03

To be fair tho 20k is neither here nor there.

If it was 200k it might mean something.

[edmondj] 26/11/2004 20:16

Cap'n,

But the capital costs of developing Swaylands do not satisfactorily explain why Oakdene has been able to agree a supposedly cut-price deal.

I don't agree with the 'sell' stance on Honeygrove from growthcompany tonight, on the basis of more accounting skeletons to come. I agree there appears to be at least another skeleton, but reading the Oakdene prospectus its chief exec has a strong accounting background including insolvency practice. So I estimate Oakdene's due diligence uncovered the black holes and the terms of its offer took them into account.

The nasty surprise of all this seems liable to keep both shares pressured, but in terms of underlying fundamentals it was interesting to see the finance director of Oakdene has just made a maiden purchase of nearly £20,000 worth of shares at 92p. Obviously one can't be sure what might happen in the South East housing market, but I am inclined to read this as a belief in attractive risk/reward. FD's don't get paid like the top bosses and are normally careful with their money.

[capt bligh] 26/11/2004 17:08

My guess is far from being a black hole in the accounts its that the capital costs of developing Swaysland would put too much strain on the balance sheet and the sale to Oakdene allows HYS holders to benefit via their OKD shares in the very substantial upside of the site. After all they are virtually building a village there and the return should be enough to wipe out the new groups entire debt. I think the OKD people are very shrewd.

[muddy waters] 26/11/2004 17:00

How can we certain they turned down an offer for Swaylands, is there any proof anywhere that there was such an offer?

[ukhawk] 26/11/2004 16:09

I questioned hybrasil's motives before, but judging by his comments on the OKD bb he's not a HYG director.

[lord buffett] 26/11/2004 16:03

hybrasil

Are you a Honeygrove director or do you work for one of the companies closely related to this 'affair'?

How come Honeygrove has virtually no NAV all of a sudden then???

[hybrasil] 26/11/2004 15:59

rockbott
Frankly because you would be mad not to.
I would imagine hyg has nowhere to go-why else sell for a recommeded offer of way below suppos-ed NAV.

[rockbottomone] 26/11/2004 13:54

Surely it is not a done deal (but close too!) as 64.8 percent (i.e. 42.5 per cent. from directors and 22.3% from RAB) have voted aye.

Oak need 75% to push the deal through so it all depends on how the remaining 35.2% vote.

Who is honestly going to vote acceptance of Oaks offer?

[lord buffett] 26/11/2004 11:59

Directors have a statutory duty to inform the market of any price sensitive information which materially affects expectations by more than 10% up or down.

So if I were you I would be questioning why they are 'giving YOUR company away' when you are still expecting earnings of 3p this year and 5p next year - a total of 8p per share, which is only about the price being offered! Well talk as much as you like about low p/e ratios in the building sector, but that's plain ridiculous.

Bearing in mind that they turned down a £14 million offer for one of their developments not so long ago, justifying that by saying they expected the net worth to shareholders to be well in excess of that amount, I'd say that the very kindest charge you could level at the Honeygrove directors is total and utter incompetence.

However I personally think it runs much deeper than that as I find it difficult to believe ANYONE in business can get it THAT wrong. If I were them I'd think extremely carefully about exactly what they do from here on in!

[cvolbrac] 26/11/2004 11:53

Hi,

Bought some HYG shares at 11p a couple of months ago, so clearly I wasn't very happy with the offer announced yesterday. My assumed short-term downside was a price of around 9p if the bid talks failed, with a possible upside of up to 15p. Another lesson that there is no such thing as a one-way bet!

Interesting to see that the FD of Oakdene Homes bought 21,600 of their shares at 92p yesterday. Obviously he feels that they have done a good deal!

Given the (pre-acquisition) broker forecasts of 23.4p this year and 39.7p next, compared with the current OKD price of 81.5p, I think I'll hold on to the shares for the time being.

I'm obviously concerned about falling house prices, particularly in the South, and this could well hit their earnings forecast for next year based on falling margins (at the interims, operating margin was an impressive 29.8%). However, the fact that they focus on housing below £200k per unit should prevent them being exposed to the highest risk segments of the market.

Cheers,

Chris

[ukhawk] 26/11/2004 11:51

I sold all my HYG shares y'day, but have one last question. How could the company have put out last weeks statement, and included "However the company said the adjustment will not impact on underlying profits" ?
I don't believe being under the AIM umbrella gives them the protection to put out such a mis-leading statement.

[muddy waters] 26/11/2004 10:56

The sort of problem I have encountered apart from collapsing footpaths etc, is that I signed a contract to buy one of 27 houses and to then form a mangement co. to manage the private land etc. Only 21 houses were built and the second phase never started. The residents were never handed over the control of the management company as expected and they seem to have carte blanche to do what they like. They are trying, in my opinion, to fleece me to now pay 1/21 of management costs and were reportedly trying to sell the un-developed land. My solicitor has said that it is not legally possible becuase the there is no provison for transfer of land by the Land Registry. I then obtained details from the Land Registry and if I have it right, the Bank of Scotland have paid for the land. I assume that seeing on paper that 27 or 28 houses will be built and sold makes good reading, its just that the realities were hidden. I give this explanation because I think it illustrates how complicated things can get and how it is nigh impossible for any potential shareholder to get accurate information. I don't trust any of them any more. It may be that Oakdene know what they're doing and you may yet get your money back. I'll take a bet however that the directors don't lose out.

[hybrasil] 26/11/2004 10:28

oakdene shares now falling!

[edmondj] 26/11/2004 10:18

davidosh,

The inexorable logic is that accounting problems have been uncovered and the deal enables directors + auditors to exit the stage swiftly.

[hybrasil] 26/11/2004 09:34

ccraig69
My guess is that they will not have bought Honeygrove on the cheap but it is only a guess,
UK
Where I would have thought you should look is RAB who only last year took a serious chunk of the company at 10p. To say the least they are big boys. The rns of a possible offer was made and RAB went immediately into the market selling down from 11. Does that not tell you something. Did it take them that
long to realise that they had got it wrong.

[ccraig69] 25/11/2004 22:01

Thanks EJ. I was thinking the same about Oakdene, atleast if they found something bad in the accounts then they have good accountants, if they bought HYG on the cheap they have both good accountants and are shrewed, I guess its worth looking into this company further to see if worth holding there shares.