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[bourdon] 14/11/2002 18:36

"Teachers moan too much and, in reality, get paid well for working short hours."

Dark Matter

that`s the most ignorant comment i have read so far!

[hectorp] 14/11/2002 18:24

I think that pets could be recruited and do the job of firefighters very well. in fact take the 5 dogs of Ossie Osborne, theyd make a good team once poo trained.

more seriously ( maybe) - Professionals, so should get professional salary ?

firefighters should sign non-strike agreements if they wish to be called 'professional' . I suspect they have no idea of the ethos of professionalism which some of us do understand. it is imbibed from University days. Professionals do not count the hours nor the degree of duty enacted.

Professionals see a good salary and don't worry about the cash. Professionals - Doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, Civil Service administrators, military officers - all take on the depth of the service and the onus of extreme responsibility on their shoulders. Now answer this anyone- is this a definition that ascribes to the present fire officers?
Nurses, fully trained, probably deserve a professional status and some do have that status. A far cry from the 1930's ... 'nurse I'm thirsty.. I fancy your right tit!'.
ahem.
Like the Police, fire officers do a skill or task but its not intellectualy demanding. Now - here is a useful definition to ponder - can you have 'dim professionals' ?
A guy I know is a fireman and he is pretty dim.

Can you be a 'kind' of professional where the depth of care of the caseload is the scene of a fire' ?
Well, if danger and sudden short bursts of activity are professional activities so is that of the squaddie, and many others.
So I don't see a case for bringing the fire service into the ranks of the Professions. The police service sits uneasily already between task-driven worker job and professional.
If there is a definition here, 'Senior' staff are professionals... the rank and file, are oiks. True of Police and also of Fire service. I do not intend any nastiness by that . The Officer class are always professional class. ( sounds old fashioned, but it is still the case).

Let the firemen and women come off their high horse or they will have ideas above their station (pun not intended). I don't think they deserve more than around 5% wage rise they are not poorly off, and if they were professional they'd get back to work and stop acting like workers.
-Can't have it both ways.
Rather than the stupid future of every one 'Professional' on 30K a year lording it in the community, rather lets see tha strike fail, even if it takes 3 months.
H.

[dark matter] 14/11/2002 18:06

yf23_1,

I do not generally read the Investors Chronicle because it is basically a cr@p publication. However, if you have found one of the rare articles it has worth reading please post it so all can see.

DM

[yf23_1] 14/11/2002 17:52

Dark Matter
Please read Investors Chronicle 20 Sep p45 bottom article.
You will be shocked.

[plainz] 14/11/2002 15:47

Channel 4 poll:

Do you think the firemen should strike?
Yes 38%
No 61%

Other way round


bbc:

VOTE RESULTS


Do you back the firefighters' strike?

Yes
37.51%

No
62.49%

69347 Votes Cast

Results are indicative and may not reflect public opinion

[dark matter] 14/11/2002 15:41

Avatar o8o,

My position is that firemen should be allowed a decent wage. A wage of £30K is not incompatible with the duties that are expected to perform but a rise of 25% to 30% is probably more realistic.

However, if they expect to have the full benefits of professionals they need to accept the full responsibilities of professionals. In my mind this should prevent them from moonlighting.

You are correct that 10 hours sitting in a station is not quite as demanding as driving for 10 hours non stop. However, we would not expect a fireman to be at his best if he has just been driving for 10 hours non stop, moonlighting as a taxi driver or truck driver.

If boredom really is a problem then give the firemen some less urgent tasks to perform like performing fire drills or inspecting local schools and hospitals.

I will not comment further on the housing bubble because there are plenty of threads about this. But it should be understood that house price inflation leads to wage inflation which leads to consumer price inflation. The inflationary spiral that we are now in is unstoppable. The firemen may not win a 40% pay rise but they will end up winning a pay rise significantly above inflation. The longer the government allow the dispute to be propogated the more it will draw attention to low wages in other parts of the public sector.

Of all the public services, the fire brigade is the service that attracts the most public sympathy. The police have lost the trust of the public because they put too much resource into minor traffic offences - from which most people have now suffered in one form or another.

Doctors work hard but get paid well. Teachers moan too much and, in reality, get paid well for working short hours. Politicians get an obscene wage for a part time job.

Firemen get little money for risking their lives and, at times, working long hours. The government has made a big mistake in ignoring their plight. Next to come will be escalating public sector pay claims of the government's own making.

[mitzis] 14/11/2002 15:21

postmen to go on strike acc to latest reports......

[spongy2] 14/11/2002 15:15

Channel 4 news also have one, similar proportion, though with much smaller sample.

[yf23_1] 14/11/2002 15:07

sorry, wrong thread

[sanc] 14/11/2002 15:06

Hello me again.

The BBC are running a poll similar to ours. Obviously their poll has a bit more weight than ours, go to and cast your vote!
You're find the poll halfway down the page on the right.

The BBC's poll
"Do you back the firefighters' strike?"

Here are their stats so far (14/11/02 14:50):

68090 votes cast
37.58% No
62.42% Yes

Our poll has an overwhelming 'AGAINST' vote - "POLL - FIREMAN'S STRIKE - FORE OR AGAINST"
Last tally was yesterday evening 88% Against, 12% Fore.

I'll do another tally later if necessary...
sanc.

[yf23_1] 14/11/2002 14:59

H&S forming on the weekly DOW, would imply we are now forming the right shoulder, so a rise again to 8600/8700 and then down.
Its so easy when you look atthe longer chart, which means the big drop won't start for about 2 weeks.
Just time for the weapons inspectors to run into problems.

[dark matter] 14/11/2002 14:36

Avatar o8o,

I'm sure no one objects to retained firemen moonlighting. Being a retained fireman is not a full time job and they need to find other ways to make ends meet. Full time firemen, however, should not work excessive hours any more than HGV drivers, bus drivers or other hazardous occupations. Moonlighting in such circumstances poses a danger to the workers and the public.

What I say is give them a proper wage and expect them to do a proper job.

The housing bubble has many causes but easy money is not the most significant cause. Otherwise we would see a housing bubble in the North of England and throughout most of Europe.

Shortage of housing in areas of high demand is the most significant cause. There is plenty of land in the South East of England that could be released with little detriment to the environment. There is also much potential to build new towns in other parts of the UK.

[kelshawconway] 14/11/2002 14:23

I say sack all the members of FBU.

There are 40 applicants for each vacant firefighter's position,. If the pay and working practices are that bad - please explain this fact.

Out of date, inefficient work practices need significant amendments.

The vehicles belong to the Councils and these lazy, left wing socialists have no right to picket the firestation, thereby prohibiting the army to use the real fire engines.

The public will decide and within a week it will all be over.

[avatar o8o] 14/11/2002 14:13

yf23,

I think your point is valid, BUT, it is the so called impoverished people who always think they deserve more that spend their money on such things. Perhaps if they didn't, their personal budgeting for things that are important might not be so hard to balance!

davser,

Exactly. These guys are not sent into a burning building without training. Of course there is a risk but so is there for a lolipop lady if she does not pay attention to common sense and the oncoming traffic!

Dark Matter,

Many firemen that I know, moonlight because the nature of their work means they get a lot of time off together. Also many of the firemen I know moonlight as RETAINED firemen! One phone call to them, whether they go out or get to the station £15!

The housing bubble is caused by too many people, thinking they need to own their own homes and or thinking they should have palaces, mortgageing themselves up to the eyebrows to pay for it. That's what causes a bubble, the blind infatuation to have something at whatever the cost. Giving people progressively more money en masse will make the problem even worse!

[dark matter] 14/11/2002 13:56

We do not want firemen that are moonlighting, overworked, lazy, drunk or tired.

We want hardworking, trained and skilled firemen that are prepared to risk their lives for the community.

£23K is not much to ask for such skilled professionals but it is alot to ask for a part time job.

I say give them a decent rise. Maybe 25% to 30%. But in return for reasonable reforms. I have no idea how much moonlighting really goes on but given a decent pay rise there would be no excuse for it.

The firemen's strike is an unfortunate manifestation of the housing bubble. A significant minority of the population in necessary professions such as the fire brigade are really having to live below the poverty line because they cannot afford the cost of housing. This is where the blame really lies.

The solution is simple. Release more land for housing and let supply meet demand. Build some more new towns and make Britain a less attractive magnet for illegal workers.

[davser] 14/11/2002 13:55

I know a fireman who said to me this summer that there is no risk to the job as they assess every situation and the training prevents them getting into difficulty. 40%? Get real. 10% more than fair.
Against if you hadn't guessed.

[jaxaxe] 14/11/2002 13:49

The pay scale is featured on the fbu website.....from 17k at 18 all the way to divisional level at 46k....check out the over time rates...no they arnt worth it!

[tom555] 14/11/2002 13:36

Do firecrews across the country get the same pay?

For example the Burnley firecrew featured on the 6 o clock News yesterday would probably have one of the best paid jobs in Burnley if they get 30k. Im not saying theres anything wrong with that.

[avatar o8o] 14/11/2002 13:34

I doubt very much that due to the pure love of being a fireman, many of them have given up more lucrative paying possibilities. That said they knew the wage when they joined and were probably pretty happy to get it with all the overtime etc added on. At the end of the day, they do a good job, but it is not a fantastically skilled occupation and for most of the time they are hardly risking their lives cleaning the fire engine!

The militants are testing the water and with a claim of 40%, are more interested in a fight than getting a settlement, so sadly the honest fireman has been convinced he is somehow being terribly mistreated by society and undervalued. Everyone wants more more more, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Some of the professions are well overpaid, such as train drivers and to use them as a comparison of a fair wage merely makes a bad situation worse.

11%? more than fair with inflation as low as it is. If that isn't enough for them to live on, retrain as a train driver, stop whinging, or perish the thought, live within their means instead of living out of them!

[mad4it] 14/11/2002 13:33

....and he will score.