Phoenix Share Discussion Threads

[rcturner2] 03/6/2020 10:14

I've sold out my holding today. Nice turn from 490p.

[lauders] 01/6/2020 02:01

The trend from the recent low is good. Hopefully we will be back to the 700p level before we know it and then move onward from there as things, with luck, improve globally. One recent write-up:

Phoenix Group Holdings (LON:PHNX) has had a rough three months with its share price down 13%. However, the company's fundamentals look pretty decent, and long-term financials are usually aligned with future market price movements. Particularly, we will be paying attention to Phoenix Group Holdings' ROE today.

[lageraemia] 28/5/2020 11:23

Nice price action and sigbnificant funding RNS this morning.......
...

[netcurtains] 27/5/2020 08:53

looking good - no one breath

[qs99] 26/5/2020 21:32

great to see continued director/associate buying....DYOR

[williamcooper104] 26/5/2020 16:37

Yep - in the old days when annuity providers took reinvestment risk low interest rates would have been murder But reinvestment risks are minimal now so should not matter Arguably though it does increase the total loss given default - eg if a bond defaults and repays at 50p - then that 50p and another 50p from reserves needs to be reinvested However while interest rates are crashing risk premiums are also increasing so the reinvestment returns shouldn't be just as low as interest rates on own would suggest

[edmundshaw] 26/5/2020 15:59

A lot of FI instruments will be matched to liabilities. Barring default, for those instruments/liabilities, interest rates are of no relevance.

Also, almost everything that can be hedged is going to be hedged. No need to take risks when "management actions" can generate enough cash to pay for staff, management and investors...

[bluemango] 26/5/2020 15:10

Felicity Lyons, wife of Chairman Nicholas Lyons, has just bought (Friday 22nd) 20,000 shares at a full cost of around £117,000.

Big vote of confidence.

[panshanger1] 22/5/2020 12:32

I was pretty reassured when management made the following comment about the dividend and decided to go ahead and pay ( in the account last week btw) :'After assessing the impact of very severe scenarios on our solvency position 'Think Clive Bannister has done a great job here FWIW

[skinny] 22/5/2020 12:10

Yes, it was rhetorical really.

There's no real reason for it not to return to the £7 area in the medium term.

[bluemango] 22/5/2020 12:01

If you could be reasonably sure their dividend is sustainable, even at just a maintained level, surely it has to be bullish at 8% yield.

[skinny] 22/5/2020 11:48

Is it going to be bullish or bearish.

[skinny] 22/5/2020 11:45

Inspite of Peel's "reduce" reiteraton.

[bluemango] 22/5/2020 11:44

Given the carnage elsewhere on the markets, I'd say this is holding up pretty well, btw.

[bluemango] 22/5/2020 11:40

General question to the BB - the following was posted on another thread re Phoenix, and I wondered if any knowledgeable holders might have a response? He's drawing attention to the cashflow figures over the last few years and using this to query the business model. Any comments? I recall some recent discussion on here taking about eps and not looking at PHNX in quite the same way as other business models. Tia

"JTCod21 May '20 - 23:23 - 7585 of 7586
0 0 0
Phoenix
Operating Cash Flow for last 8 years 2012-2019

-2,291.00 1,023.00 -3,716.00 -576.00 -1,845.00 1,156.00 -324.00 273.0
(£ in millions) figures from Morningstar

That’s a negative cash flow over the period of £-6.6bn or -£-820m pa average, which equates to 20% of market cap in average operating cash outflow pa over 8 years.

That situation does seem to be improving to be fair but I would not be too hopeful that the breakout will be up tbh guys or that the dividend is safe with a business model like that.

Sorry to be so negative. I have no interest either way. Maybe I am missing something."

[williamcooper104] 22/5/2020 00:02

And quite a few IG bonds either are or will be sub-IG

[williamcooper104] 21/5/2020 23:59

So many of them still (less than before granted) are overweight equities having always felt that it was too expensive to move to a more LDI approach

[ianood] 21/5/2020 23:34

williamcooper104 - With interest rates falling dramatically any PF that has the usual equity/FI mix with investment grade FI will most likely see a reduction in any deficit

[williamcooper104] 21/5/2020 21:57

Makes new buy outs v difficult Also means pension liabilities are going to go super huge - next three year valuations going to see a doubling of deficits

[my retirement fund] 21/5/2020 21:53

Negative interest rates soon

[williamcooper104] 21/5/2020 15:53

Yep - hold CSN too - it used to trade at a discount to Pheonix and I was partly holding it looking for a buy out premium

[speedsgh] 21/5/2020 15:43

Whilst admittedly not exactly alike (not least in terms of size), it is interesting to see that the Chesnara (CSN) share price has more or less returned to its pre-Covid level which is most definitely not the case here.

[thamestrader] 21/5/2020 15:26

....and out of the longer term one too, methinks?

Maybe best to leave the chickens uncounted for now.

[cassini] 21/5/2020 15:20

Well it broke up out of the intraday triangle ;0)