Partnership Share Discussion Threads

[chairman20] 27/3/2014 16:16

the bottom fishing buyer
has not bounced the share
price back up

[nerdofsteel] 27/3/2014 15:08

one last thing oldtown, I've been investing (not trading) for 30 years and never "follow lambs to the slaughter"

Just accept that people are entitled to have a different opinion to you and you should not shout them down at every opportunity. Follow your own advice.

You are perfectly entitled to have an opinion on QPP and think it's over-valued. It's your attitude to others who disagree with you that is the problem. Have a polite debate and beg to differ. Focus on the investment case otherwise people will think you are a paid basher like Harrissen and hvs1, and that's why you lost credibility on the QPP board.

[nerdofsteel] 27/3/2014 14:29

oldtown 27 Mar'14 - 13:43 - 251 of 251

I apologise for having an opinion that differs from yours on QPP and PA. I now agree with everything you say. Honestly.....

[oldtown] 27/3/2014 13:43

When you say victimised, what you really mean is it's my lone voice up against 100 mad deranged QPP fans (you being one of them) attacking me none stop all day, dont you?
Why? Well that's all because i dare say that i believe QPP is overvalued, and it's a "something of the night stock", so i need to be hounded of that thread on your maladjusted terms.
You're long QPP, I'm short so good luck! it's just a position, i don't take your long as a personal attack on me so why do all you see my short as one on you?
Try and respect others opinions.

Great valuation of PA and your compelling (cough) reason why you think it is going to fall further btw?
Stick to TIG part doux nerd and get rich quick, it's that easy to make money on AIM, just follow the lambs to the slaughter, then blame someone else when it all unfurls..

[nerdofsteel] 27/3/2014 12:55

oldtown

Apologies to everyone else on this board for going off topic but oldtown victimised me on the QPP board for 2 weeks.

re: QPP - I never said statements like "this will fly" - you are getting confused with other posters.

On the subject of Annuities, I am sure I can give you a very good run for your money on the market and the technicalities thank you.

Personally I think the market will still exist for Enhanced and Impaired Annuities as a specialist/niche market, and possibly for those who cannot face the prospect of drawdown and manmaging or having someone else managing their portfolio. I'm a great example, as I have a large SIPP and I'm approaching 55 in a couple of years. I was planning on drawdown but I have a medical condition which means I may get a much higher income from buying an annuity than from drawdown, but I need to factor in life expectancy and the fact I will lose all my capital with an annuity.

So although the Annuity market will always be there it is likely to be smaller than it is today, unless Govt Bond yields improve and hence the rates become more attractive.

[sh0wme] 27/3/2014 09:58

I've had another nibble. I would have thought a £30m contract win would have been RNs with sentiment poor?

[sos100] 27/3/2014 09:50

nice bit of buying!

[sh0wme] 27/3/2014 09:29

BBC Breakfast had Hargreaves Lansdown's pensions expert, Tom McPhail, explaining the pension changes and saying that along with the flexibility, it will still often be the best thing to do to take an annuity to be sure of not running out of money in old age.

PA. current price looks to me to assume no more new business at all. Whereas, not only is there still some scope for individual annuities, more importantly that's not the only thing PA. do. Eg They're in the growing bulk annuity market covering occupational schemes and yesterday' announced they have won a £30m bulk annuity deal.

[sh0wme] 27/3/2014 09:27

hxxp://www.partnership-group.com/media/news/company/2014/partnership-sign-buy-in-deal.aspx

Plenty of opportunity. Market will value this higher soon enough. Over reaction

[oldtown] 27/3/2014 09:02

Nerd,I personally really don't care if you say it's going up or down, you see i respect both sides of the argument, and don't feel any other view is a personal attack, like you seem to!
The problem for you is you're not intercultural enough to actually make any worthwhile argument on any stock are you now?
You remain faithful to quotes on the QPP thread like "this will fly" and "45p by Monday" and "last chance to get in at this level" all stupid meaningless,maladjusted garbage.

Nerd , i would love to see you set out your valuation of PA. and explain the annuity market as you see it to me please.
I won't hold my breath

[hassani2] 27/3/2014 02:04

Correction needed before we can check the quarterly report resumed,annuity ;some can take it or leave it,end of the day the profit required was reached in a report well highlighted...

[nerdofsteel] 27/3/2014 00:17

oldtown 26 Mar'14 - 07:47 - 231 of 242 1 0

"I think the fall has been well overdone..........."
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the fall has much further to go actually, although bashing is probably not that palatable when the boot is on the other foot is it oldtown?

[soul limbo] 26/3/2014 15:05

Annuity market to shrink by £9bn, says L&G boss

26 March 2014 Last updated at 13:26

The annuities market will shrink to a quarter of its current size owing to the shake-up of the pensions system, the boss of one of the UK's largest insurance companies has said.

Nigel Wilson, chief executive of Legal and General, said that the market could shrink from nearly £12bn now to about £2.8bn after 2015.

The new system will abolish the requirement for some people to buy an annuity - a retirement income for life.

Pension pots can be taken in cash.

Under the Budget proposals, from next year millions of people reaching retirement age will be able to spend their pension pot in any way they want, including cashing in their pension savings in one taxed lump sum.

Mr Wilson said that Legal and General expected retirees to take more of their savings in cash and rely more on their property as a source of retirement income, rather than buying an annuity.

"We certainly expect to see more cash being taken out, either singly for small pots or across several years, and we expect to see more use of the housing asset as pots get depleted more quickly," he told an investor conference.

His comments come shortly after a warning from another insurance company about the extent of pension savings.

Nigel Barlow, director of product development at Partnership Assurance Group, told BBC 5 live that the average pension pot was £30,000 from which retirees would not get much income, irrespective of annuity rates.

"Annuities have had a bad name in certain areas. What has happened is people have not been encouraged to look for the best deal," he said.

The full changes to pension pot rules will be implemented in 2015, under government plans. However, temporary rules easing some of the current restrictions come into force on Thursday.

Insurers have expressed concern that all the details that could impact on customers' retirement choices had yet to be ironed out.

[yasharsad] 26/3/2014 11:58

Why the volume is so low. The chart is moving up no doubt but for some reason the volume is low for a FTSE share.

[tsmith2] 26/3/2014 10:46

Common sense returning

[sos100] 26/3/2014 10:34

couple of days of rises on the cards here, not asking for much considering how much its fallen...

[captain_kurt] 26/3/2014 10:20

Shares in Partnership Assurance (LSE: PA.) have slumped 55% to 138p, while Just Retirement (LSE:JRG) has tumbled 42% to 154p.

Both companies are specialist annuity providers, and so their business is threatened by George Osborne's planned reforms. However, I think these share price falls are overdone.

That's because Parternership and Just Retirement are both 'good guys' in the annuity world.

The real scandal with annuities has been that too many retirees were given a poor deal when they bought an annuity. They didn't realise they could shop around between annuity providers and get the best deal. Instead they took the annuity they were offered by their pension pot provider.

If these pensioners had shopped around and declared all their health problems, they might have been able to boost their pension income by 40%.

Partnership and Just Retirement are specialist annuity companies, they don't provide pension saving products. So if you end up with an annuity from either company, either you or your adviser has shopped around.

Under the chancellor's new plan, everyone will be offered free financial advice when they retire, so that should mean more people will shop around at retirement.

Granted, many folk will decide not to bother with an annuity. Instead they'll either go into drawdown or just take all the money from their pot after paying some income tax.

But some people will still want an annuity, and I believe a higher percentage of annuity buyers will end up at Partnership or Just Retirement.

So yes, I can see both companies' share prices have fallen. I just think the falls are too large.

[topvest] 26/3/2014 09:16

I've added some here to triple up as seems oversold to me. Risky, but a good opportunity I think.

[sh0wme] 26/3/2014 08:22

An investment fund buying in bodes well. Wouldn't be surprised to see more the next few days.

[twixy] 26/3/2014 08:16

Thanks for the informative posts guys; I agree we are going to be well rewarded here when reality dawns.

[oldtown] 26/3/2014 08:14

Ref 232
Agreed, i was just illustrating that apart from the poor, most people will find that tax is payable on the annuity anyway regardless if they take the lump sum option that will now exist.

[sos100] 26/3/2014 08:12

starting to look quite good for a decent bounce back...

[scrapheap] 26/3/2014 08:03

"The basic state pension is the tax basic code allowance amount so any other income after that (private pension) is taxable."


That is not the case - for some it may be (or more) depending on SERPS/S2P additional payments but the basic state pension is well below the personal allowance.

[techno20] 26/3/2014 07:47

Another factor to add to the mix. Post 26th April new regulations hit the mortgage market. These include the responsibility of lenders to take a prudent view on "lending into retirement" - a not insignificant part of the market. Up until last week lenders were simply anticipating gathering pension information to demonstrate affordability post retirement age, for anyone taking out a loan post lets say age 55. With the budget changes this may well change and none have as yet, as far as I am aware, stated how they will deal with it. Suspect it'll simply make it harder to get a loan in later life, but it remains to be seen whether lenders look to lock down the committment to purchase an annuity as part of the agreement to a loan.

[oldtown] 26/3/2014 07:47

I think the fall has been well overdone, but don't forget when talking about the cash lump sun attracting tax uner the new rules, the income from the annuity already attracts tax at the holders existing tax rate.The basic state pension is used up within the tax basic code allowance amount so any other income after that (private pension) is taxable.
So after vesting you pension your annuity is simply added to all your existing income and then charged tax upon at the applicable rate.
It could therefore be argued that by taking the lump sum you could invest in a say a cash isa (over years) or bonds/gilts to achieve a better income than being offered by say PA?
I believe the crux is this,will PA. be able to offer a more generous but secure income over the long term than available on the open market by investing your lump sum yourself?
I think yes but at a considerably less margin than on existing annuities, so the business will be affected.
That remains to be seen but with the shares trading at NAV and even the doomsday scenario pundits saying 20% of the business will continue it looks like value at these levels.
I think a new product will appear on the market in the regards of a pension bond where part drawdown at 5% over 20 years would leave no tax payable and create a reliable income but give the customer in affect control of their capital or at least their estate if they died, and could be used for IHT planning..
Hopefully PA. will find a new niche that obviously this new challenge will create.

One last point, i see this new pensions rules increasing the use of ISA's for pension planning, obviously you don't get tax relief on the contributions but the cash pot you build up would be completely tax free on retirement and hence any income taken from it tax free.
So when looked at together with the taxation of dividends in pensions and the tax on the lump sun at exit they are not now that dissimilar at the end calculation.
Moreover with the ISA route you always have complete control of the capital unlike a pension..
You could then use the tax free lump as you please without any tax liability or use it to provide a tax free income thereafter for life via a transfer on retirement to a ISA income fund or by using cash isa.
Probably better used by higher rate taxpayers the financially astute and the disciplined.