Ocean Wilsons (holdings)... Share Discussion Threads

[piedro] 19/7/2018 17:28

LOTM,

04 de July de 2018
Latin America needs USD 55 billion by 2040 to boost maritime and port industry

[varies] 19/7/2018 10:21

LOTM
I agree with you entirely.
All will now depend on whether the Saloman/Townsend families want to do.
If all the cousins are on excellent terms with each other, then they might well decide to keep OCN going. In almost any family there are, however, some members who would like to cash in.
Glassboy
Thank you for telling us about the TCP transaction

[sspurt] 19/7/2018 08:29

I see the shop, Cantor, are valuing the terminal assets at $800m. I need to do the math but that looks quite juicy for OCN and Hansa shareholders. Don't expect it will be distributed tho.

[glassboy] 18/7/2018 17:13

Last year China Merchants Port Holdings paid $924m for 90% of TCP Participações, which is a 1.5m TEU port. That was reported as 14.3x EBITDA.

By comparison Wilson Sons have a current 1.1m TEU, agreement to major expansion of capacity at TECON Salavdor and the two logistics hubs. In 2017 EBITDA was $85.2m.

Big transaction when Wilson Sons entire market cap is about $870m.

[last of the mohicans] 18/7/2018 15:50

NTV,

The cost of debt to them in Brazil is very low, they get very low rates compared to the normal interest rate.

They are due to re-pay over $100M over the next 2 years within Brazil.

LOTM

[ntv] 18/7/2018 15:02

hansa has returned only 47% over the last 10 years
not the best performance especially as they are so called professionals
OCN less than 25%
though good share trading would improve those returns . the portfolio was last revalued at £5.70 and surely better use of the cash would to have been to pay off all debt any way as cost of debt was probably more than the returns

[steve3sandal] 18/7/2018 12:16

Interesting discussions on the latest news...please do continue. I quite like the safe haven of firms under generations of family control though OCN and Hansa have ended up offering trading opportunities to me rather than buy and hold. Without fully understanding the potential outcomes of yesterday’s announcement I couldn’t resist sneaking in at 8.00.01 am to see if MMs were awake. Managed to pinch some OCN and HAN before they went up. Discount on discount and a catalyst this time makes for a decent margin of safety to pinch a wiser man’s words. Good luck all.

[last of the mohicans] 18/7/2018 12:14

varies,

thanks for the reply, hadn't looked into Walter at all.

It will be the grandchildren / great grandchildren coming through into Hansa etc.

I think there too smart to go down the liquidity route, its set-up a bit like a pyramid scheme or how Branson controls his Virgin empire.

Keep over 50% of the top company in your control, then ensure the next one down has over 50% of the company's it controls and that those one's own 50% of there sub company's. That way you keep ultimate control of everything with as little of your cash tied up as needs be. You effectively get to use other peoples money to achieve what you want.

They could have expanded outside Brazil as they keep threatening to do, or been more aggressive in the bidding process for certain assets they were rumored to be interested in but never actually bought because they were out bid on them.

If they really cared about the main Hansa fund performance they would have sold down its Ocean Wilson holding in 2010-11 when it had increased 10 fold in like 6 years.

They didn't why, because they would have lost overall ownership control of Ocean Wilson's.

Which meant years of under performance for Hansa shareholders.

(Just for the record none of my family have ever held any Hansa shares that I'm aware off)

LOTM

[last of the mohicans] 18/7/2018 11:18

varies,

Dream on I'd say.

They effectively floated/sold WSON33 to raise funds for the investment business while effectively keeping overall control of the Wilson & Sons business.

They are involve in Hansa as are there children.

Did they do Ocean Wilson share buy-backs at massive discounts to the NAV which would have narrowed the underlying discount plus enhanced the value of the outstanding shares ?

No they refused, instead charging Ocean Wilson's 2 management fees ie Director fees plus the fee the company pay's to Hansa each year for managing the investments.On top of that the Ocean Wilson shareholders also have to pay fees to the fund of funds the money is invested in.

In otherwords Ocean Wilson shareholders take on all the investment risks on a low risk / low reward portfolio (other than the Private Equity part which is much higher risk) while they reap nice yearly income from there jobs at Hansa as well as at Ocean Wilsons.

They clearly have plans for the company & there own future requirements, its just not been revealed to the ordinary Ocean Wilson shareholders yet.

LOTM

[varies] 18/7/2018 09:43

Glassboy
Thank you for posting the comment by Valor.
I am very interested to learn that Wilson Sons intends to retain the river tugs business with which the company started, I believe, over 100 years ago.
I wonder whether the Salomons have any sentimental attachment to this business.
If not, they will surely arrange to take OCN out of Brazil altogether.
The stock market investment side of the business has not been successful in recent years and its management is in effect sub-contracted to outside fund managers.
Without a holding in Wilson Sons, OCN would have little reason to continue as a company and I hope it would then be liquidated.

[ntv] 18/7/2018 07:53

looks like it was up another 5% in Brazil

[ntv] 18/7/2018 07:42

many thanks for the epic code Flyfisher

[topvest] 17/7/2018 20:20

I think its Wilson Sons that is up for sale, rather than Ocean Wilsons. I can see Ocean Wilsons becoming an investment company.

[ntv] 17/7/2018 19:32

i would happily accept £13 for a sharp exit

[topvest] 17/7/2018 19:13

All very interesting. Think the Group is effectively now open to a bid.

[glassboy] 17/7/2018 12:52

"Wilson Sons, one of Brazil's largest port, maritime and logistics services operators, has decided to put up for sale four assets to maximize business value. Yesterday, the board of directors approved the beginning of a formal process involving investments in container terminals and logistics, according to the relevant fact sent to the market. The company did not report what or how much they are, but Valor found that they are the two container terminals, Tecon Salvador and Tecon Rio Grande, and two customs facilities - the Logistics and Industrial Customs Center in Santo André (SP) and the customs station of Suape (PE)."

www.valor.com.br/empresas/5663577/wilson-sons-poe-venda-4-ativos-de-portos-e-logistica

So it seems Wilson Sons is not being sold, continuing to hold the remaining maritime services businesses. And presumably plenty of cash!

[varies] 17/7/2018 12:02

NTV
Thanks.
The interest in Wilson Sons is worth, if I remember rightly, about 70% of OCN's assets.
In the event of OCN selling this for cash and distributing most of the proceeds amongst us, we might well receive about £7 per share. I believe that UK shareholders would then be treated for CGT as having made a proportionate disposal.
For example a holder of 1,000 shares might receive £7,000 and retain shares worth £7,000 xc. If the cost of his shares was £500, then 7/14ths of this cost would be attributed to the cash distribution and 7/14ths to the shares retained. So his gain for CGT on the cash distribution would be £6,750.
We are, of course, a long way from such an outcome.

[ntv] 17/7/2018 11:30

i agree varies, i think it will be the chinese
CGT would only be payable if the whole company was bought and as no deal has been done yet i shouldn't worry
maybe they will pay a special dividend if a deal is done.
only thoughs close to the company will know.
if a only amount of the business is sold they probably only pay down debt imho

[varies] 17/7/2018 09:07

These container ports will certainly interest the Chinese who have, for example, built huge ports in Sri Lanka and, I believe, Somalia.
Whether the Brazilian government would let the Chinese buy them is another matter.

A large holding (say 30% ???) in Sociedad Quimica (SQM), a huge lithium mining company in Chile, became available last year and the Chilean government refused to let the Chinese buy this.

I have held OCN shares for over 30 years (bought at under 50p). I see from the graph that the share price peaked at £14 in 2011 but I believe we may now see a significant rise in our asset value. The Saloman family still control OCN, partly through Hansa Trust, and I have no idea what their intentions may be.
If Wilson Sons can be sold, then we might reasonably expect a distribution of the proceeds. There are likely to be substantial liabilities to Brazilian tax and, for many of us, to CGT.
I am holding on.

[flyfisher] 17/7/2018 08:49

Trying to sell the parts of the business where competition is increasing, ie container terminals and logistics. I recollect it closed some low margin logistics operations a few years ago.
Whether it can divest them is another matter. I see it as an admission of lack of potential in these divisions.

[flyfisher] 17/7/2018 08:43

wson33, will put the brazilian market quote on your monitor.

[ntv] 17/7/2018 08:16

galeforce1
have you got a link to the Brazilian share price
substantial value could be unlocked here

[galeforce1] 17/7/2018 08:00

Sounds to me like a decision to exit the container terminals business. I see that Wilsons is up 5% in Brazil.

[topvest] 17/7/2018 07:53

An interesting announcement indeed from Wilson Sons Limited, albeit their announcements always lack sufficient clarity in my view. Looks like a move to unlock shareholder value...are they talking about selling the whole business or just a part of it?