Jtc Share Discussion Threads

[lr2] 13/12/2018 11:19

Are you trying to convince me that Teresa May is as clever as a badger? Not sure I can go along with that assumption.

[brucie5] 13/12/2018 11:14

lol. He certainly seems to have been outmanoeuvred by Teresa May.

[brucie5] 13/12/2018 10:54

PENDRAGON2
13 Dec '18 - 10:01 - 70429 of 70430
0 1 0
A certain irony there Brucie, as I think one of the principle effects of EU membership has been to weaken and disempower the competence of national governments, so politicians becoming ministers discover they have little or no authority and are really doing an implementation job on behalf of EU defined policies (especially in the detail).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pen, I'm not sure I agree. Look at the policies of the total range of governments within the EU and the main thing that may hold them in broad alignment, until the populism of last few years, is need to run a budget, and by and large, the lessons from veering to far to with the left or right, in terms of economic or social policy. It's not the EU that told Osborne to cut public spending so severely, there were other models available. Any more than Victor Orban, a middle European version of Erdogan, is paying much heed to the EU on any number of issues. Likewise, it is historic structural issues that bind the French economy, not anything that comes out of Brussels, and much as some of the yellow jackets, or more likely, their rightist commentators, might want to say its all about the EU, for most of the protestors, it's actually about Macron.

In my opinion the idea that national governments are trammelled by the EU is vastly overstated. We are actually constrained by our own politics and prejudices, to a far greater extent, but for JRM and his supporters, it makes a convenient whipping boy, while they seek to deceive the country into moving to a an altogether different kind of economy, (low tax, low regulation, public services) which suits their interests. The same, I'm afraid, to be seen in the USA, where Trump is actually the plaything of far greater interests on the right.

As someone who feels alarmed at our neglect of the environment, I'm constantly struck by the way the way the alt-right are attracted to conspiracy theories, particularly around science. I saw an interview recently with JRM, where he was saying that one of the advantages of leaving the EU was that his farmers would be able to o on using neonicotinoids, widely credited with their destructive effects on bees. Likewise, Owen Patterson is on record as being remarkably dismissive of the case for human influence on Climate Change. There is a much wider battle going on here, which another reason why I believe the EU is crucially important, not just for us, but for the world at this point.

Break down the EU, as the right want to do, and it will be far harder to build and act on climate change and other crucial environmental protections.

[jtcod] 13/12/2018 09:06

Q: How do you sell a business that has no future?A: You bribe a man to pay you with other peoples money.....or in other words you float the companyhttps://uk.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/g4s-may-list-global-cash-and-notes-business-1405081

[brucie5] 13/12/2018 08:31

Pen, why surprised? The fact that she has done a far from perfect job is mainly because of the far from perfect hand she was given. Her main weakness es, and there are several, has been to feel pressured into bad timing and strategy decisions by the ideologues, none of whom could have led in her place, and each of whom were waiting for the opportunity to stab her in the back, as they have every Tory prime minister since Margaret Thatcher.

I'm not sure what comes next, though, and beyond the short term satisfaction of the ERG getting a bloody nose, I'm probably no happier than you at the prognostic. I personally think parliament is now unleadable, not just the Tory party. That's why we need a people's vote to put a fresh firework up everybody's bottoms.

[pendragon2] 13/12/2018 08:21

I was surprised to see May survive, but in fact she won with a larger majority than the recently elected Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer did as Merkel's successor as CDU Party leader who won by less than 2%.

[blusteradjuster] 13/12/2018 06:46

Indeed Brucie.

Perhaps he’s hoping “nanny” can hate every minute of it for him..


“May he hate every minute of it”

[blusteradjuster] 13/12/2018 06:45

Mount Teide’s hypocrisy there for all to see.

You lost, get over it, your boys took one hell of a beating, suck it up, buttercup.



“Take out May's petrified self serving payroll sycophants and she in fact lost the vote by more than 2 to 1.”

“Bruce - your coming across as a highly embittered referendum loser unable to accept democracy unless its agrees with your son's point of view”

[jailbird] 13/12/2018 06:07

I reckon Article 50 will be extended or revoked because she can get a deal through parliament Labour in the wings ready to call no confidence in the government

[jailbird] 13/12/2018 06:05

MT,"Take out May's petrified self serving payroll sycophants and she in fact lost the vote by more than 2 to 1. A poll"This was a secret vote , the payroll MPs could vote NO without ramifications , so that argument dues not apply These payroll MPs are also known to devious saying one thing in public and doing another in private but they still supported her in numbers

[mount teide] 13/12/2018 03:56

Take out May's petrified self serving payroll sycophants and she in fact lost the vote by more than 2 to 1. A poll among constituency party members saw 90% against her con-job leave in name only 'deal'.

Bruce - your coming across as a highly embittered referendum loser unable to accept democracy unless its agrees with your son's point of view - the UK electorate by way of a record breaking referendum vote, instructed their political class to take the UK out of the EU (A European Federal superstate in all but name only) LARGELY BECAUSE NO ONE IN THE UK HAD EVER SIGNED UP FOR THAT!

The UK electorate were sold EEC/EU membership on false pretences by the political class, following which they had to watch helpless, as their sovereignty, and control of their borders, laws and judiciary was transferred over the next 43 years to an unelected bureaucracy based in another country, without ever being consulted on the matter by the political class because they KNEW FULL WELL WHAT THE ANSWER WOULD BE.

The last 2.5 years has proved beyond doubt hat the overwhelming majority of Westminster is living with a sense of reality and morality entirely different to the referendum winners - probably because more than 85% of them are referendum losers unable to accept the result of the vote - they are characterised by a collective personality of extreme selfishness, delusion and moral cowardice as they lead our country to ever greater calamity and National humiliation.

It really did look as if the ‘meaningful vote’ on May's wretched stitch-up deal was going to be a moment of national catharsis: Tory MPs would find their spine and a sense of honour – never easy for most of them on either count – and May would finally be ousted. However, it was not to be: instead, she has engaged in her favourite strategy of running down the clock, narrowing the options in the hope only her preferred course of action (or inaction) would remain viable.

The conditions are ripe for a new centre right party pledging to deliver what 17.4 million people voted for - TO LEAVE THE EU.

[brucie5] 12/12/2018 23:13

Delighted by this evening's news: if only that the shysters, conmen and ideologues of the right have received a bloody nose. And to cap it off, Michael Cohen, Trump's crooked attorney has got three years, while speaking all sorts of explosive truths about the don in the Whitehouse.

Of course Farage is a a virtual groupie of Trump, playing to his rallies, and Gove was among the first British sycophants to go over and interview him, on a jamboree paid for by Rupert Murdoch. It kind of all links together, doesn't it. Bannon is even said to have face timed Boris on a recent tour of Europe to Stoke up the cryptofascists over here: he thinks highly of the blond buffoon, which is kind of funny, because few others do since his disastrous stint at the foreign office. Ken Clarke said of him this evening that he couldn't run a whelk stall.

As for Teresa, she may be lacking in both imagination and charisma, but she has more integrity and grit than all 48 opportunists put together, including their comic Gauleiter fom the 18th century, Jacob Rees Mogg, who having failed to muster a proper insurrection now has to suck it up for the next twelve months.

May he hate every minute of it.

[swiss paul] 12/12/2018 20:59

Paul Nuttal out of UKIP - but still and MEP - I think he has declared as an Independent - but he's no loss really

[pendragon2] 12/12/2018 17:31

One point that isn't covered and is a big sticking point with the EU is the question of quotias.

A whole range of goods from different parts of the world, ie textiles from the USA, are subject not only to tariffs, but also quotias of so many thousand tonnes or units, or whatever.

Behind the backstop discussion is the expectation that exporters from third countries will export to UK, assuming quotia free trade, with the notion of re-exporting, hence the issue isn't just about the Irish border, as reported, but also about the scope of a so-called free trade agreement, that is anyting but.

I don't think the people in Brussels care a fig about the irish border, but it is an easy way of trying to ensure their quotias don't become irrelevant, as Ireland suddenly acquires a taste for tens of thousands of tonnes of shirts, etc.

With the EU, there is always a hidden agenda.

[freddie ferret] 12/12/2018 17:22

MT

Re your 70404

You are actually wrong on all counts.
It is not worth arguing but time will tell and you will see.

Re Tories splitting, I do not see it.

The current question is, who will lead it?

May will win this first vote tonight however I believe it is possible she may be fatally damaged.

Boris - not suitable for several reasons.

Davis - too old.

Another woman - not likely!

Dominic Rabb - probably the most likely.

JRM - my personal choice, but will never get enough votes.


If May survives, I believe she may do some things a lot of people do not like and this confidence vote eliminates the possibility of a challenge for 12 months.
This worries me.

[mroalan] 12/12/2018 16:39

Brucie,if you could just run through the above and advise us to its perils i,d appreciate it.mro.

[mount teide] 12/12/2018 15:31

On BBC News Bernard Jenkin, the Tory Brexiter MP, said there was something “OrwellianR21; about being called an “extremistR21; by Philip Hammond, the chancellor.

He said: "It is odd, isn’t it, that 52% of the country voted leave, and we put in our manifesto that we should leave the customs union, that we should leave the single market, take back control of our laws. Now we are faced with an agreement that doesn’t deliver these things. And we are called the extremists. It’s an Orwellian world we are living in, isn’t it?

I thought that once we had won the referendum, we would be accepted as the mainstream. The problem we’ve got is, even though some 400 constituencies voted leave, so many of their members of parliament who say they represent are not happily supporting leave. They are trying to frustrate the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. That has got very big consequences for our democracy.'

Quite right - 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU and will not accept May's BRINO stitch-up! Why should they?

[blusteradjuster] 12/12/2018 12:11

Nick Robinson made Farage look like a hypocritical berk on at least one occasion - regarding his wife.