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Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Hargreaves Services Plc LSE:HSP London Ordinary Share GB00B0MTC970 ORD 10P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  -10.50 -2.32% 442.50 440.00 445.00 460.00 440.00 455.00 20,881 16:35:02
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Support Services 204.8 14.4 50.8 8.7 143

Hargreaves Services Share Discussion Threads

Showing 2126 to 2150 of 2425 messages
Chat Pages: 97  96  95  94  93  92  91  90  89  88  87  86  Older
DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
07/12/2020
12:00
hi Looks like we both agree then that the major spend thus far of ~£20 million at Blindwells should be most/much of the cost to be incurred & that now 'we' are moving from the preparation phase to the implementation phase & hence cash coming back to HSP from land sales. 'Book value of land should include money spent on it' yes/phps but due to accounting rules/norms the costs are booked I think in the period they occur, reducing the tax bill for that year whereas if moved to be a capital investment (& increasing the book value) then it doesn't imo produce a tax saving in the year the money is used, 'cause the money has been invested rather than spent. (personally I prefer to see money spent being recorded as money spent (as HSP treat it I think) & not being called 'an investment in intangibles/tangibles', which is an old stock mkt accounting trick to manipulate the reported profit & bump it up ( by removing some costs !) (as was done by PHD, Accesso, Globo (!) & many other cos., normally IT/technology cos.) Not revaluing buildings/land every year, it is the normal practice I think & avoids the high cost of doing it incl. paying external valuation 'experts' & extra complexity for the accounts. ----- the chairman putting in £110k of cash a short time ago shows that he thinks the result of HSP costs vs income will be good.
smithie6
07/12/2020
11:40
By the way Smithie6, they sent out the consultation document by email on Friday evening, mine came around 6pm - so in a way, not as late as you suggest. The problem with your huge expectations in terms of cash from the land / development, based on the table in the Annual Report is that we have no way of measuring cost against outcome Smithie. So far they have spent, on Blindwells for example, close to £20m and sold plots for £10m, with another two plots ready for sale I think. All the table you refer to says is that the land they classify as residential has a book value of £6.3m, a market value of £19.3m and a development value of £37.4 million. My assumption is that most of the major expensive work has been done within that £20m for most of the site. For example, I'm fairly sure, from memory, that Blindwells OCCS hit extensive old workings - that is (for anyone who doesn't know) quite shallow mine working left after mining perhaps a century ago. If Fairclough Parkinson decided that the workings made excavation of such seams uneconomic the seams would need investigation for surface stability which would entail drilling through opencast backfill to the workings and possibly grouting them, depending on their condition. The drilling would however give a good indication of the state of the back fill, particularly in terms of collapse compression. That sort of remedial work would be a major early expense, but we have nothing to measure it against, ie. what sale price, and what cost deduction, leads to the £18m more profit from development of housing land than could be gained by sale now at market value. The other big question imo is timing. HSP talk about, using Blindwells again as an example, ten to fifteen years of profitable development there with 1600 houses, followed by major phase two. But I think things are taking far longer than they anticipated when making that, and many subsequent, predictions. Perhaps that is just a learning curve, but if not the profit could be quite thinly spread over a long period. Finally, that table talks about "book value", but I feel that the "book value" should include all the costs of obtaining PP, site remediation, etc which have been added to the balance sheet as assets, that would be more comparable to the "market value".
muckshifter
07/12/2020
08:47
Yes that’s my feeling too Muckshifter
terry236
07/12/2020
08:42
A little later than usual with the pre-close trading update, but I'm hoping that this is because "completion" is imminent on the two Blindwells plots, and perhaps, if we're lucky, a sale announcement on the third plot, all to be included in the update.
muckshifter
06/12/2020
13:24
just had a look at the plan (made available on-line 3-4 days after the promised date) overall, there are some obvious mistakes which is a bit poor phps, especially noting that this project has existed for years - it states there will be 3 road accesses but it only shows 2, & 1 of those is blocked by trees ! - there is no direct road access from outside of the site to the park & ride, & imo there must be. (that is phps for access number 3, mentioned by not shown) ==== - 3 all weather tennis courts. nice, for those of us that play. but it seems a generous loss of land that won't provide any income for HSP. (or is 3 so that it is also a six a side pitch ?) The council pays for building the tennis courts or HSP ? - The plan says they expect the primary school to open for 2024/2025 !! really !? the building work on the site needs to really get its skates on then !...which is good news if it is about to really get moving (perhaps just after the winter ?) since it means that other plots of land for homes will be sold. :-) - mentions an application for 65 houses (plot 12 ?). if approved (which I assume it will be since the overall plan is approved) then that land can be sold with building permission, cash for HSP :-) - it talks about promoting sustainable transport different than using a private car but I didn't see any info about that, apart from a block called park & ride without a dedicated direct entry road from the public A road. So what are the transport plans ? - café/bar area might be nice in the summer, beside a small lake, south facing....with decking - sustainable are they putting solar or hot water panels on the commercial buildings & the school to help with 'sustainability' ? ===== anyone know which 11 acre part is being bought by Bellway ?
smithie6
06/12/2020
12:49
if of interest I saw this about land values in the 2018 annual report "In August 2017, we reported that the independent Red Book valuation of our property assets had been completed providing a market value of £49m and a development value of £83m compared with a book value at 31 May 2017 of £31m. The following table includes the results of an updated independent valuation carried out at this financial year end which shows that the valuations remain valid" ----- development value gain = 83- 31 million = £52 million wrt the value used in the accounts & £52 million , if achieved in reality, would be a big % of the cap. value of the company.
smithie6
06/12/2020
11:11
Perhaps there will be news or greater detail wrt - idea of train halt No - park & ride No - leisure/cafe/bar/school/medical facilities Small amount of info - any changes to help make the location more attractive & help increase the land value :-)) No - perhaps some changes in routing of the on-site roads/paths ?? I take it you haven't read it yet then Smithie6?
muckshifter
06/12/2020
10:55
I disagree :-) 1) Beeks of Arabia cap. value of HSP is 70-80 million. land already sold is = 9+ 1 + 25 million = £35 million there is another 15 acres for sale at Blindwells I understand. 10 more million ?? there is another 25-35 hectares on offer the Hatfield site, for warehouses/commercial use. Another 25 million ? so about 70 million cash !! the same as the cap. value of the company. & that ignores land for ~ 1200 houses at Blindwells & then another 900 houses in phase 2. What other part of Hargreaves is likely to produce so much return during the next 5 years ? (phase 2 at Blindwells is likely to afterwards). I think I am looking at the right division, if you think another division is more interesting wrt profits/cash then Im happy to be corrected. 2) muckshifter the co. rep. has said that there are changes, that a lot has progressed during the last years (he said 5 years). (if it is true or not, I dont know) Perhaps there will be news or greater detail wrt - idea of train halt - park & ride - leisure/cafe/bar/school/medical facilities - any changes to help make the location more attractive & help increase the land value :-)) - perhaps some changes in routing of the on-site roads/paths ?? 3) prices for bricks & materials "not known until they go to buy them" I disagree. Big housebuilders have specialists to calculate costs in advance & during the project. It is a subject controlled in great detail. And using Excel or similar tools (ELCO Power Project) they can click on different bricks & see the new total cost immediately. (& since they need volume they will order in advance imo; & perhaps even store in volume).
smithie6
06/12/2020
10:07
That's not the level of detail I'm talking about netcurtains. All the document seems to tell us is where the town centre is to be.
muckshifter
06/12/2020
09:37
to be fair muckshifter: You cant really give details until you start the job, no one really knows who will be the bricklayer until they start work, likewise, what bricks they will use and how much they will cost until they actually go to the shops and buy them. Same for all details. Detail is something that evolves as projects progress.
netcurtains
06/12/2020
08:39
The plans / public consultation document doesn't tell you much anyway Smithie6, they are very short on detail and long on BS, as you would expect.
muckshifter
06/12/2020
00:41
You seem a little obsessed Smithie :) HSP are more than just a land owner you know - there's a very nice business sat behind the name. Although I understand the current interest with the land.
beeks of arabia
05/12/2020
23:50
here is a link to the Blindwells website, for the public consultation about the updated plans for the site www.blindwellsconsultation.co.uk The plans were supposed to be published there on last Wednesday, but on Friday there were still no plans available, it is now the weekend, are the plans finally there yet/now ? the public meeting, via the internet, is scheduled for 6pm on Weds 9th Dec. but imo might have to be delayed since the public need time between the plans being published & the meeting to discuss them.
smithie6
05/12/2020
23:42
ah ha I stand corrected. (although council tax would imo be higher from 3 bed semis than from small 'granny' bungalows & councils impose s reqt. for these, so maximising council tax income is not the sole/only/top council reqt. I think. I guess that councils have a fairly tough job for developments since so many reqts to try to observe & to balance (young people, old ppl, married couples, children, disabled, car transport, public transport, leasure facilities for young & old, medical etc) --- ( I think that councils also limit the maximum density, no ?)
smithie6
05/12/2020
07:43
No Smithie6, local authorities set minimum housing densities per hectare, not maximum, which is what I thought my earlier post explained. Local Authorities can always turn down an application if the density is too high, but they provide reasons to justify minimums set for major developments in their policy documents. If you think about it, ensuring a high density of dwellings in a development maximises council tax income and minimises the upkeep cost of roads, sewers etc. From the planning approval document:- "The proposed development would be consistent with Policy DP3 of the adopted East Lothian Local Development Plan 2018, as the proposed development would achieve a minimum average density of at least 30 dwellings per hectare (net)."
muckshifter
04/12/2020
17:28
interesting, thanks ---- I guess that in the coming months we will find out how it has been going. With ~27 million invested in recent years it needs to pay a big annual teturn for amort. & deprectn. & ....profit !! 'we' have been promised 12.5p divi from the German venture.... if it happens the share price should go up ----; various big lumps of cash hopefully arriving in 2021 - completion of existing land sales. £35 million - profit from pulverisation plant - sales of big amounts of the stocks of coal (& hopefully news of more land sales)
smithie6
04/12/2020
17:19
thanks for your long post about Germany & pulverisation gonna read thru it
smithie6
04/12/2020
17:17
muckshifter housing density we think the same but your post contradicts itself imo (the council limits housing density that reduces the price per hectare & hence the land owners profit not the other way around I think you just had a slip of the pen)
smithie6
04/12/2020
17:14
In terms of your latest series of posts Smithie6, here, fwiw, is my understanding of the origin, situation, etc of the German associate company HRMS GmbH, taken from an incomprehensible (imo) set of Annual Reports that I’ve just re-skimmed through. To be fair, the “dog’s breakfast” of enterprises which HSP owns, would take some explaining, so the lack of clarity that I’m complaining about, is understandable. Firstly voting rights, ie. control of the actions of the company lie with the German management who have a 51% stake, but financial “ownershipR21;, which I believe HSP explain as “profits and assets” without mentioning liabilities – which I would assume follow the same principle, is 86% HSP. This, I would think, stems from the origins of HRMS. HSP originally, I believe, had set up a team in Germany trading coal and the like into German industry, especially coke produced by HSP’s cokeworks in Yorkshire. Presumably, that team did well, and presented HSP with a proposal to create partly management owned HRMS, with perhaps an unacceptable alternative. HSP then set up HRMS with an initial loan of £10m, iirc, and a bank guarantee for a £5m facility. HRMS was a nice successful business for some time, I believe, but the closure, or impending closure, of the UK cokeworks caused them to decide on building the Carbon Crushing Plant, on the basis that it would give them more leverage with their customers. There was a hint that something new was being considered in the 2017 report, then in the 2018 report it was reported as being built at Duisberg, where HRMS have their HQ, at a cost of 27.5m Euro funded by 15m borrowed from a German bank by HRMS, a loan of 3m Euro from HSP, and the remainder from profits retained in HMRS. It was to be completed by end of March 2019, but was in fact six months late (no mention of cost overruns). Within that 2018 report, one of the “key risks” identified by the auditor was that failure of HRMS would create a material risk to the Group. Elsewhere in that AR total financial liability of the group related to HRMS is stated to be £29 million and outstanding receivables from HRMS is given as £11.8m, so the success of the German enterprise is clearly critical for HSP. In terms of what the CCP does, it must serve the high quality coal and coke users, such as steel smelters, cement works, etc, with German “coal” fired power stations using the much lower calorific value ( but cheap and local) lignite. Presumably, the high quality carbon product users have had some sort of system for pulverising the coal / coke themselves for years, but HRMS believe, and have convinced HSP, that they have a viable business which can replace the existing system profitably. That would not surprise me, as businesses generally seem to be whittling down peripheral operations and outsourcing them as they approach obsolescence these days. Finally, the purchase for 1 Euro of an adjacent business DK Recycling in December 2019, was reported in AR 2020. This is a business that reclaims iron from furnace slag, and is currently (at the date of the 2020 AR - 28/7/20) the first customer of the CCP. Both businesses are said to be suffering covid related slowdowns. Again, this is said to be a unique and efficient reclamation process, which presumably is intended to replace provisions at smelters. Many years ago blast furnace slag was used as sub-base on a motorway building contract I worked on, but it was not good, because it was full of lumps of slag mixed with metal, which is what I assume this recycling company is dealing with, separating the metal out and selling it back to the smelter with sub base or cement additive as a bonus by product perhaps. It will be very interesting to see how successful these two ventures are, as they seem to me to be critical to the future of HSP and must be reliant on replacing existing suppliers, but I doubt if we will have a clear indication this year. Hope that helps your understanding of the situation!
muckshifter
04/12/2020
17:14
if X% of homes must be for smaller budgets/incomes ('cause the public system doesn't want to spend the money to provide them !! & 'cause Maggie sold off thousands of public houses so they are no longer available to the poorer people !! ) then should flats not be considered ? (not a tower block, just say 3 levels incl ground floor) many young ppl (18-30) are not interested in gardening....(& a communal space/garden could be provided) & many older ppl are maybe not up to keeping a garden in a decent condition & also these 2 groups, if they have low income, probably cant afford a lower cost house with a garden (especially as their first house ) even though its cheaper than a 3 bed semi !
smithie6
04/12/2020
17:08
No Smithie6, you have to have at least a certain number of housing "units" per hectare specified in the LA housing master plan. My bet would be that many of the houses will have "attic" rooms, ie a third storey to achieve the required population density, but we'll see.
muckshifter
04/12/2020
17:02
I think you mean the reverse
smithie6
04/12/2020
16:10
There are density requirements, ie. housing units per hectare applied by most local authorities, including the one at Blindwells, for major developments, which in a way limits the sale value of the houses by cramming them together, but perhaps maximises the land value (this was something I discovered in terms of a development in my village).
muckshifter
04/12/2020
16:00
interesting that Bellway wasn't doing the cheap houses, I had assumed that. ;-) & hence that it would be the other co. Cruden (~45-50 homes) & Bellway doing the smarter/bigger homes (~145-150) (to avoid damaging their image as an upmarket homes co.) ---- how much HSP & how much Bellway do ....I guess won't be revealed officialy, or might not be ....although it sounds like you know what is normal
smithie6
04/12/2020
15:01
Afternoon Smithie6, Your stream of posts keep drawing my attention back to HSP. The stuff about the public consultation at Blindwells, in particular, had me worried when I went to the website to read it. It almost appeared to suggest that the detailed planning permission required for the Crudens and Bellway sites were open to objections until 15th January, thereby implying that planning approval would be perhaps March next year at the earliest, which would obviously delay payment to HSP. So, I’ve investigated a bit further, and find that the Cruden Plot, which is all “affordable housing” received “detailed̶1; planning consent on 24th June this year, but with a list of conditions to be fulfilled and approved before work could begin. The application was made in both HSP & Cruden’s name, and both parties have things they need to provide and get approval for before the development can begin. Some of the conditions relating to HSP have the potential to seriously hold up completion, but to have got this far without obtaining assurance that the foul sewer connection was available, for example, would be unbelievably incompetent, so I’m sure that condition will be met. The Bellway plot is in a similar position I believe, but is not all “affordable221; housing. Although this makes my original expectation of both completions before Christmas look possible, it does create doubt. It is also a further indication of HSP’s incredibly consistent fault, over promising and under delivering, as the actual planning hearing was not subject to Covid delays, but was more than a month after the HSP predicted date for actual completion, which now is at least seven months late. PS. Forgot to say that the Consultant Engineering Geologist to the Local Authority said he was satisfied with the remediation of the opencast backfill and did not believe there was now a problem with potential collapse compression, which was good news.
muckshifter
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