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Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Capital Gearing Trust Plc LSE:CGT London Ordinary Share GB0001738615 ORD 25P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  -30.00 -0.66% 4,540.00 4,550.00 4,570.00 4,540.00 4,540.00 4,540.00 19,187 16:35:09
Industry Sector Turnover (m) Profit (m) EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap (m)
Equity Investment Instruments 7.8 6.4 59.1 76.8 553

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

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DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
23/2/2014
22:51
MIATA - Thanks.
apsoo
23/2/2014
15:57
Gengulphus - Many thanks for your earlier answer, I have one more question re: Stock ISA's. Say I purchase shares up to the value of the allowance of £11,520.00. The shares have moved up in a short space of time and I wish to take profits. I sell the lot and bank the profit. I then wish to make another investment...could I therefore reload my ISA with shares up to the allowance of £11,520.00 even though I am still in the same tax year and could I keep repeating this and still have no tax to pay ? Furthermore, could I continue trading in my usual non ISA account and keep the yearly CGT allowance and therefore only declare these trades ?
apsoo
21/2/2014
07:52
Use one of the calculators on www.stonebanks.co.uk - option 1 for notes, option 2 for calculator, or www.CGTcalculator.com
david77
21/2/2014
01:36
Hello. Firstly, I am not the real Norman Lamont. Secondly, how do I work out CGT on a share where I have bought some in several different trades, and sold some in various different trades? Is it fifo, lifo or something else? Thanks in advance.
norman lamont
20/2/2014
10:47
Re 8. www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/splitting-pensions-during-divorce
miata
20/2/2014
09:45
I own 2 houses both in Mr and Mrs name, selling main home (#56) for £100k profit, have a 2nd property (#10) where I lived before for 7.58 years and letted for 4 yrs. The 2nd property will be mine outright in the divorce. Not sure on CGT issues and thus do not know what to do with my 2nd home. (I do not want to move there) house #10:- bought July 2002 for £165k (deposit and mortgage - current value £265k? letted out Feb 2010 (Stayed = 7.58 yrs (7.7/12) end of letting 15/2/2014 (Letted = 4.00 yrs) Total = 11.58 yrs empty at the moment – to decide to sell or let out again and sell in future house #56 – current marital home – lived there Feb 2010 to current – being sold Questions:- 1. Is there any CGT/liability on #56? I assume no CGT as main home and divorce Depends on whether #56 has been your 'only or main residence' for your entire period of ownership (i.e. your 'main home' reason - whether you're divorcing or not doesn't come into it as far as I am aware). As you say when you lived there but not when you bought it, I cannot tell for certain - but if you moved in very soon after buying, it will be completely covered by private residence relief. The same will also apply in some other circumstances - e.g. if there was a period of up to a year between buying and moving in, but that period was needed to refurbish it. There might also be an issue if there was a period during which both #56 and #10 were your residences - i.e. properties you owned and lived in. It sounds as though any such period would have been short (quite possibly too short to bother about - but I don't actually know what HMRC's take is on periods being too short to bother about!), but if it does exist, which one counted as your main residence at which time depends on whether you nominated one of them as your main residence within the 2-year time limit, and if not, on what the facts say about which property you were mainly living in. 2. Does HMRC helpsheet 283 apply to #10? Do I get any reliefs, If so please help with calcs Yes, HMRC helpsheet 283 definitely applies to both properties - if it weren't for private residence relief, you would be fully liable to CGT on both properties. It probably applies quite simply to #56, which could well just be a straightforward 100%-private-residence-relief case. It's not quite that simple for #10. 3. If sell #10 – what are CGT implications for Mr And Mrs? (half share) Almost certainly no CGT to pay, but you may well have to account for CGT on it in your tax return if you have to fill one in. The reason for that is that private residence relief covers the period it was actually your residence (which ended 4 years ago) and the last 36 months of your ownership if sold in this tax year, which is reducing to the last 18 months if sold next tax year. That leaves at least a year uncovered, increasing to at least 2.5 years if not sold this tax year. On your 11.58 year ownership period, that means somewhere between a bit under 10% and a bit under 25% of the gain will not be covered by private residence relief. However, letting relief will also apply, and on the figures you give, the amount of the gain that you still need to relieve is less than the amount of private residence relief you have, less than £40k, and less than the fraction of the gain attributed to the letting (on a fraction-of-the-ownership-period basis). So letting relief will completely cover the remaining gain, leaving no gain on which to pay CGT. That applies regardless of whether the fraction not covered by private residence relief is around 10% or around 25%, so when exactly you sell it in the near future doesn't make a difference to the zero outcome, just to the exact figures along the way. For people with a larger gain or larger fraction of the gain uncovered by private residence relief, though, whether they get the final 36 months or the final 18 months might matter - in which case an important detail is that it's whether the date of exchange of contracts (not completion) is in the current tax year that matters. (Normally, that is: if the contracts have conditions in them that say the sale might not go ahead at all, it's the later date when it becomes definite that the sale is going ahead.) Joint ownership is also relevant: each person does their own calculation on their share of the gain, determined by their beneficial ownership. Normally that's 50:50 and each person's calculation is the same as the other's, at least up to the point of adding their other capital gains, offsetting their capital losses and seeing whether what remains is covered by their CGT allowance. If by any chance beneficial ownership isn't split 50:50, their calculations might differ, and might not even be in proportion to each other - for instance, one might run into the £40k limit on letting relief while the other doesn't. The reason I think you may have to account for it in your tax return even though no CGT is due is that I've only ever seen statements that house sales completely covered by private residence relief don't have to be reported. That suggests that house sales that are partly covered by private residence relief, with the remainder covered by other reliefs such as letting relief, do have to be reported. 4. Can I offset the original costs of purchase of #10 – legal fees, stamp duty etc? Yes - they are "incidental costs of acquisition" in CGT-speak. 5. I also have share losses from past years of £20k – can I offset these against the gain of £100k from sale and thus reduce the CGT liability? Maybe - it depends on when they were made, whether you have 'claimed' them (which basically means telling the taxman about them within a time limit), and whether you have been forced to use them against gains since. If they do get successfully carried forward to the tax year in which you realise the gain on the house, you can use them against that gain other than in a few unusual circumstances. Of course, there doesn't actually seem to be a CGT liability to use such losses against at present, so that answer mainly applies to the situation in your next question... Note by the way that ownership of the shares at the time they were sold matters, in order to determine exactly whose losses they were. 6. If I transfer #10 to my name and carry on letting out then sell in future? CGT implications? The longer you do it, the higher the proportion of the gain that is not covered by CGT, and probably the higher the gain. At some point, that will probably take the remaining gain above the level that can be covered by letting relief - most likely by taking it over £40k - and so some of the gain will become chargeable to CGT. Somewhat after that, the amount of the gain chargeable to CGT will probably exceed what you can cover with your CGT allowance and losses (you will of course only have your own allowance and losses to use once the house is in your sole ownership, not your spouse's as well) and CGT will start to be payable. 7. If I sell in now (as Mr & Mrs) or in future (as Mr) and reinvest into another property – can I avoid CGT? Well, I think selling now will avoid having CGT to pay (though probably not having to account for it to the taxman) anyway, so the strict answer to your question is "Yes"... But I assume what you mean is "Can reinvesting in another property help me avoid more CGT than I could otherwise?", and I think the answer to that is "No", at least as far as individual taxation is concerned. (There might be ways for use of a limited company that owns the properties to avoid CGT - or to be precise, avoid the Corporation Tax equivalent of CGT - but that goes well outside my knowledge.) 8. Anything else need to worry about? Doubtless! ;-) But nothing I can think of at the moment. Gengulphus
gengulphus
20/2/2014
06:09
Gengulphus, MIATA Thanks for you comments. In retrospect I can see where I have caused confusion and take the points you both highlight. Having looked at the suggested publications, quite heavy going, the ESCD2 document regarding split year treatment "...does not apply for 2013/14 or beyond." SRT will be used instead. So SRT to determine if a split year should apply to me, which, AIUI determines both income tax & CGT. I am going through the examples/rules to see how my circumstances would be evaluated. Thanks for you help, pointers. Kind regards, SloopJohn
sloopjohn
19/2/2014
15:22
Hi, Re: DIVORCE & CGT SELLING 2ND HOME Hope someone can help me in my predicament where I am getting divorced. I own 2 houses both in Mr and Mrs name, selling main home (#56) for £100k profit, have a 2nd property (#10) where I lived before for 7.58 years and letted for 4 yrs. The 2nd property will be mine outright in the divorce. Not sure on CGT issues and thus do not know what to do with my 2nd home. (I do not want to move there) house #10:- bought July 2002 for £165k (deposit and mortgage - current value £265k? letted out Feb 2010 (Stayed = 7.58 yrs (7.7/12) end of letting 15/2/2014 (Letted = 4.00 yrs) Total = 11.58 yrs empty at the moment – to decide to sell or let out again and sell in future house #56 – current marital home – lived there Feb 2010 to current – being sold Questions:- 1. Is there any CGT/liability on #56? I assume no CGT as main home and divorce 2. Does HMRC helpsheet 283 apply to #10? Do I get any reliefs, If so please help with calcs 3. If sell #10 – what are CGT implications for Mr And Mrs? (half share) 4. Can I offset the original costs of purchase of #10 – legal fees, stamp duty etc? 5. I also have share losses from past years of £20k – can I offset these against the gain of £100k from sale and thus reduce the CGT liability? 6. If I transfer #10 to my name and carry on letting out then sell in future? CGT implications? 7. If I sell in now (as Mr & Mrs) or in future (as Mr) and reinvest into another property – can I avoid CGT? 8. Anything else need to worry about?
red nutter
15/2/2014
18:26
Gengulphus - Many thanks for the detailed response, I understand it much better now, appreciated.
apsoo
15/2/2014
18:20
Am I right in thinking I can open an ISA and transfer eligible stock from my ordinary trading account up to the value of £11,000+ (purchase value) and when I sell which could be anytime without any minimum holding time, there is no CGT payable ? No. In most cases, you cannot transfer eligible stock into an ISA at all. You can achieve something similar by selling the stock outside the ISA, transferring the proceeds into the ISA as a cash subscription, and using it to repurchase the stock inside the ISA - a process sometimes known as "bed and ISAing". It's subject to just about all the usual costs and restrictions of the separate steps: the sale will have trading costs and will realise capital gains or losses for CGT purposes, the cash subscription is restricted as normal by the ISA allowance, and the repurchase will have trading costs, including stamp duty (but like any other purchase inside an ISA, has no later CGT implications if and when the shares are subsequently sold). If you want to start with the shares in a non-ISA broker account and end up with them in an ISA account with the same broker, talk to the broker first about doing a "bed and ISA". That's because many brokers will offer a special deal on the trading costs - a typical deal being only having to pay one commission for the two trades involved - and also because they can put the sale, subscription and repurchase through very quickly, minimising the chances of the share price moving against you in the middle. The exception that made me start with "In most cases" above is that shares released from a couple of types of employee share scheme can for a limited period (up to 90 days after release IIRC) be transferred into an ISA. This avoids the trading costs and realising capital gains or losses on the sale. The value of the shares transferred in still counts against your ISA allowance, though - and that is worked out using market value on the day of the transfer, not your purchase cost. One of the types of employee share scheme is the type variously known as a Save As You Earn, SAYE or ShareSave scheme; I can never remember what the other one is called! I would normally expect the employer or their scheme provider to tell the employees about the possibility of transfer into an ISA when the shares are released. Gengulphus
gengulphus
15/2/2014
17:05
Trying to reduce future CGT liability and hoping if any of you knowledgeable guys can assist. Am I right in thinking I can open an ISA and transfer eligible stock from my ordinary trading account up to the value of £11,000+ (purchase value) and when I sell which could be anytime without any minimum holding time, there is no CGT payable ? Would appreciate any help ?
apsoo
11/2/2014
13:23
MIATA: Understood, thanks. SloopJohn: As a word of warning, it would be a good idea for you to try to get into the habit of being precise, using the standard terminology. You just talked about gains and losses when you said "As gains and losses don't count until next tax year" without saying whether you meant realised ones (i.e. where you have sold or otherwise disposed of the shares, and so the size of the gain or loss has become fixed) or unrealised ones (i.e. where you still own the shares and the size of the gain or loss is still fluctuating with the share price). Because of that, MIATA and I got different impressions what you were saying and gave you different answers... That's harmless enough - our subsequent exchange has hopefully sorted out the differences. But there is a danger if you don't actually say precisely what you're talking about that you'll mean one thing, someone replies thinking you meant something else and the misunderstanding won't come to light the way it has this time... Gengulphus
gengulphus
11/2/2014
09:47
I was referring to unrealised gains. The statement "How should I calculate the holding "price" of each shares at the point at which I become UK taxable? Is it as 'simple' as a "section 104 holding"? was what triggered my concern. It's complex area. I recommend researching the extra statutory concessions (see ESCD2) and the SRT introduced with effect from 2013-14 (see RDR3).
miata
11/2/2014
09:11
"As gains and losses don't count until next tax year" - hope you don't mean what I think you might mean. The gains you make on cost will be taxable in the UK when you realise them. SloopJohn has said he has been out of the UK for over 5 years (so he left at the latest in the 2008/2009 tax year) and isn't returning until after the start of the 2014/2015 tax year. So he will have been out of the country for five full tax years, and so any gains or losses he realises in those tax years won't be taxed by UK CGT. That includes gains and losses realised in the remainder of the current 2013/2014 tax year. I think that's what he means by saying they "don't count", and as far as I am aware (corrections welcome, it's not an area I'm very familiar with), it's true. Gengulphus
gengulphus
10/2/2014
16:41
"As gains and losses don't count until next tax year" - hope you don't mean what I think you might mean. The gains you make on cost will be taxable in the UK when you realise them. The most important advice for some expats is if you have an ISA and are in a country which imposes tax on capital gains, use your losses before you return. For others with complex holdings (corporate actions, etc) in a non-CGT country it is cash in before you return and re-purchase in the UK to keep the paperwork simple.
miata
10/2/2014
15:13
647 What is the best way to present share holdings as a UK Tax returnee considering future CGT? Gengulphus, Many thanks for you considered and, as always, detailed reply 648. Apologies for my tardy response, very busy weekend. I will study the publications you highlight for any gems that may help. I have been outside the UK for significantly in excess of the 5-year CGT qualification period. I appreciate the warning of returning to the UK within this tax year, which could have effects on both CGT and income tax. I will avoid this without any doubt. Fact is, I have never submitted a CGT/Loss return, so I need understand that first to ensure my statement is compatible. I take your point regarding simplification of current holdings and will be mindful with any trades. I have one or two shares complicated by corporate action. SIA is one where I took capital return last time to reduce UK tax, luckily a very generous chap :-) explained the implications of both options in great detail so I have a handle on this. Share traded to zero quantity more that 30 days ago don't count, gains or losses. LTBH shares qualify for aggregate treatment, ie held over 30+ days. Regarding trading shares; as you point out I have the benefit of time to ensure the holdings are optimized. Mindful that corporate action could change, seeing I have no control in that area I'll cross that bridge should it appear. I know 'losses cannot be carried forward' from a non-CGT period, which was the reason HMG did not want post redundant gain/loss data in the past. I think you hit the nail on the head. Work out the gains under the UK tax rules, ie same day, 30 days rule etc. Ensure a 31 day 'no action' period to set the 104 holding price. As gains and losses don't count until next tax year my plan is to use the CGT Calculator with no loss carry forward, for each holding to give an aggregate holding ending tax 2013/14. Input a false trade into the calculator for zero return on a nominal date, say, 1st June 2015, the calculator should indicate a loss which is equal to the holding price in each case. I will prepare the trades history working back from my entry date to support this. If there is a need to see the calculation/trades in the future I will have the calculations and data. Now, what does a CGT form look like. Thanks again for you comments, very helpful to get another view, Kind regards SloopJohn
sloopjohn
07/2/2014
15:01
Many thanks for the quick replies. I suppose it makes sense at it effectively stops "gaming" by taking the last sale and letting the earlier sales go over 30 days (effectively sooner) I will make a note on my spreadsheet so that I don't have to ask again! Great thread and much appreciated by many I'm sure SJ
sailing john
07/2/2014
14:36
bed and breakfast eg day 1 sell 10k day 2 sell 10k day 3 sell 10k day 10 buy back 10k Is this matched to day 1, day 3 or something else Day 1. That's because with one exception, you always deal with sales in date order when doing CGT calculations. The exception is same-day sales. The same-day rules say that all processing of same-day trades gets done before any matching up of trades on different days to each other. That processing of same-day trades consists of: * Merging same-day buys if there is more than one. * Merging same-day sells if there is more than one. * If after that merging, there is a buy on the same day as a sell, 'match' them to each other: if one is for more shares than the other, split it into a part that matches the smaller one on number of shares and a 'remainder' part. Then calculate a gain or loss from the now-matching buy and sell, removing them from the list of transactions to be processed and only leaving the 'remainder' part (if it exists - it won't if the original buy and sell were for the same number of shares) on that list. So if there were a 10k sell on day 10, it would grab the 10k buy on day 10 before the 10k sell on day 1 can take it. But otherwise, the day 1 sell gets to 'match' it. Gengulphus
gengulphus
07/2/2014
11:56
EDIT: If you use the Stonebanks calculator, a buy will be matched to the first sell within 30 days, which gets marked as completed. I'm not saying that the Stonebanks calculator is right - I'm just saying that that is what it would do.
david77
07/2/2014
11:47
Quick question - looked on HMRC quick guides and can't find an answer but I know I will get one here bed and breakfast eg day 1 sell 10k day 2 sell 10k day 3 sell 10k day 10 buy back 10k Is this matched to day 1, day 3 or something else Thanks in advance SJ
sailing john
07/2/2014
11:25
1: change the company name to FAM on your data list, with note "Formerly CEN" 2: change the qty to 1/20 of original holding, and change unit price to 20 x price that you paid, with note "As result of 20:1 consolidation" - leaving total paid unchanged That's what you would have to do for the Stonebanks calculator. I don't know whether CGTcalculator can cope without that manual amendment to source data.
david77
07/2/2014
09:19
Hi, Hope someone can help. I am using hxxp://www.cgtcalculator.com/ and have a query as to how you deal with a name change and share consol at the same time. E.G.:- 29/11/13 CEN changed name to FAM and my shares had a 20:1 consol - reducing my shares from 25,000 to 2,500 Thanks in advance rednutter
red nutter
05/2/2014
16:21
SloopJohn, Sorry, can't be of much help in terms of answers I know to be true - taxation of returning expats goes beyond my knowledge. About the only thing I really know is that you have to be outside the country for 5 full tax years to escape CGT on your transactions while abroad, but if you've been outside the country for in excess of 5 years now and are not returning until the start of the 2014/2015 tax year, you will certainly have been away for the full tax years 2009/2010 through to 2013/2014, both ends inclusive, and so will qualify. Don't be tempted to return before April 6th, though! - unless of course you left before April 6th, 2008 and so also have the full 2008/2009 tax year. The "CG25000c" and "CG26500+" links in http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cgmanual/CG20200c.htm and all the manual pages they link through to look relevant and might answer your question with detailed study - but I'm afraid you'll have to do that study, as there's a lot more material there than I am willing to take on at the moment! (And to be honest, probably at any time - I mostly study CGT stuff when it is relevant or looks likely to become relevant to me, and I have no plans to emigrate.) The very small amount of skimming I've done doesn't say anything about special rules to determine what gains and losses are realised when while abroad - it generally just assumes that there are realised gains and losses and looks at whether they are taxable by CGT or not. So my first guess would be that one is supposed to work out the gains and losses that have been realised completely normally, producing the base costs for the assets not sold in the process as usual, and then decide on the basis of their dates whether they are taxable or not. The answer to the last part will presumably be "not taxable", but the base costs of the remaining holdings will be needed for future disposals. I emphasise though that that's guesswork based on a very quick skim - I may well have missed something important. I would prefer not to present all the transactions information from day dot to date to justify the declared price of my holdings on arrival. I thought a statement of the of the arrogate position of each share on arrival to UK, supported by purchase dates, average purchase prices for each transaction within each that share holding would suffice. I understand that preference - but if my guesswork above is correct (quite a big if), it may not be a preference you can actually have, as the correct base cost for a remaining holding can depend in quite a complex way on the history of the holding. It's not necessarily complex - in particular, if you've only ever bought shares in a company and never sold, it will just be the aggregate number of shares bought for the aggregate costs paid for them - but it certainly can be complex, especially if tricky corporate actions have been involved such as the current Vodafone one. One simplification that does apply is that if you sell a shareholding down to zero and don't buy again until at least 31 days later, leaving a gap of 30 or more days in which you neither held nor traded the shares, then the holding history before that gap does not affect realised gains, realised losses or base costs after the gap. I.e. assuming realised gains and losses before the gap are not relevant because none of them are taxable, you can ignore the holding history before the gap and just work from the holding history after it. Since you still have well over 30 days in the current tax year before you return next tax year, that does give you a way of escaping UK CGT calculations on holdings whose history is too complex - just sell all your shares of that type before you become taxable by CGT again and don't buy them again until at least 31 days later. That does have some drawbacks though: the chance of missing out on significant gains made by the shares while you're out of them, the trading costs, the possibility that it will realise and miss out on losses that could instead have been kept until they are usefully realisable, and the possibility that it might trigger CGT or other taxes in the country in which you are currently resident. Once again - all of that is about stuff that might be possible if my guesswork is correct about how realised gains and losses and base costs of remaining holdings are calculated when you're abroad. Gengulphus
gengulphus
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