Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

[kiwi2007] 05/4/2013 10:47

Thanks MIATA - Spoke to a girl via that number you gave who really knew her stuff regarding recent non residency. CGT - as you say no UK liability unless I return within five years.

Thanks.

[tomrob] 05/4/2013 09:19

Hi Waterloo01

I think you'll find that whatever your motive was, what you have in fact done is 'bed and breakfasting'. The rules are intended to prevent people doing what you have done in order to make best use of CGT personal allowances (and thereby reduce tax paid over all).

The gain/loss on your sale should be calculated by using the cost of the shares that you rebought (or the appropriate proportion since you indicate that you didn't rebuy exactly the same amount) first and then the balance from the earlier purchase.

Example
Buy 100,000 BLZ January 3rd 2013 for 45p each
Sell 100,000 BLZ April 3rd 2013 for 58p each
Buy 90,000 BLZ April 4th 2013 for 59p each

CGT calculation
Proceeds 0.58 x 100,000 = £58,000
Costs 0.59 x 90,000 = £53,100
Plus 0.45 x 10,000 = £4,500
Total cost = £57,600
Gain = £58,000 - £57,600 = £400

The 9,000 shares purchased on 4th April carry forward at the cost from the January trade.

[edit: I've just seen Gengulphus' response from last night and I should point out that the calculation in my example holds whether it is the 30 day rule or the same day rule]

From the HMRC site



Finding out which shares you're selling

In some cases you might buy shares of the same class, in the same company, but at different times and prices. When you sell or dispose of some of these shares, share identification rules match the shares you sold with the ones you bought. The rules you must apply are set out below.
Shares bought and sold on the same day

First match the shares sold or disposed of with shares you bought on that same day. This is the 'same day' rule. If you haven't bought and sold shares on the same day, you move on to the next step.
Shares acquired within 30 days after selling

Next match the shares sold with shares acquired in the 30 days after the sale or disposal. This is the 'bed and breakfasting' rule. If you haven't bought any shares within 30 days of the sale, you then look at shares bought at any other time.

[miata] 05/4/2013 08:17

To avoid being eventually liable to UK capital gains tax you would need to be not resident and not ordinarily resident in the UK for at least 5 full tax years between the year you left the UK and the year of your return.

So, if you do not return to the UK your tax liability will be that of the country in which you have chosen to reside.


The Finance Act 1998 introduced Section 10A Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act
1992 (TCGA 1992). Where an individual leaves the UK on or after 17 March 1998
and disposes of assets while resident outside the UK for fewer than five complete
years of assessment (a year of assessment being from 6 April in one year to
5 April in the next), the gains and losses accruing on those disposals are treated as accruing in the tax year of return to the UK, subject to a number of detailed conditions.

I don't know who you spoke to at HMRC but for a definitive response your contact should have been to FICO:

Financial Intermediaries and Claims Office (FICO), Bootle
(Residence Advice and Liabilities - Unit 373)
St John's House
Merton Road
Bootle
Merseyside
England
L69 9BB
(Telephone number 0151-472 6196. If phoning from abroad, 44 151 472 6196)



-------
A different, but related question often asked:

Q.I am leaving the UK shortly, am I liable to capital gains tax in the year I leave the UK?

A. Yes, but if you cease to be resident or ordinarily resident in the UK, you may, by concession (extra statutory concession D2), not be liable to capital gains tax on gains arising to you from disposals made after the date of your departure. However, you can only qualify for this concession if you were neither resident nor ordinarily resident in the UK for the whole of at least 4 of the 7 tax years immediately preceding the tax year in which you leave the UK.

D2:

[kiwi2007] 05/4/2013 01:07

Three CGT calls to HMRC - three completely different answers.

I became non resident in the UK in March 2012 and since then have sold a fair few UK shares (held by UK brokers) and exceeding the 10,500 limit. Over the last fortnight I've phoned HMRC to clarify my CGT position three times asking a) Am I liable for UK CGT tax and if so b)Can I utilise the 10,500 CGT allowance.

So far I've been told - no tax due, tax due, no need to fill CGT form in, must fill form in, can utilise CGT allowance, can't utilise CGT allowance.

So, I wonder whether any ex pat on here's ever been in a similar CGT position? And if so what was the result?

And if you do know the answer maybe there's a job waiting for you at HMRC ;o)

[gengulphus] 04/4/2013 23:49

waterloo01,

Hi, recommended by another poster to ask a gct question about bed and breakfasting, which I think I've done wrong. Have I? Situation is I sold 100 shares in company today (that I've owned for over 30 days) and booked a profit. I then bought back most in same account which I intend to hold. How do I work out the capital gain? Do I have to take an average of the original ones and the ones I rebought or just the earlier ones? Hope that makes sense.

If I read what you say correctly, you sold 100 shares today that you've owned for some time (it doesn't matter how long) and then on the same day bought most of them back - say 80 of them to try to make the example concrete.

If so, 80% of the share sale (80 shares bought for 80% of what you got out of the share sale) will be "matched" to the repurchase under the same-day rules, making a capital gain or loss of 80% of what you got from the sale minus what you put into the repurchase. And the remaining 20% of the share sale will be "matched" to 20 shares out of the 'Section 104 pool' of all your previous purchases that haven't already been matched to sales, making a gain or less of 20% of what you got from the sale minus 20/N times whatever that 'Section 104 pool' was bought for, where N is the number of shares it contained before the sale.

If you instead mean that you sold 100 shares and bought most of them back on a later date that was 30 days or fewer after the sale (*), more-or-less the same applies - the only difference is that the first "matching" is under the 30-day rule rather than the same-day rules. The distinction between the same-day ruls and the 30-day rule generally only becomes important when both are involved in the situation being looked at, and then only to establish which rule takes priority.

(*) The 30-day limit only applies to purchases after the sale. Purchases before the sale are treated the same way regardless of how many days before the sale they are, as long as they are actually on a previous day and not the same day.

Gengulphus

[gengulphus] 04/4/2013 23:28

BENGEE,

Take a look at the CGT computation worksheet on page 20 of , which is the closest they come to asking for CGT computations in a particular format (though they note themselves on page 9 that you merely "may be able to use" it and furthermore list some specific cases where you won't be able to). You will find that it does not ask you for prices per share, just for amounts you paid and received.

So you initially had 2m shares bought for a cost of £21,600 plus incidental acquisition costs of £108 stamp duty at 0.5%, PTM levy of £1 and whatever your broker's commission was for the purchase.

Then the consolidation changed it into 200k shares bought for the same cost plus incidental costs of acquisition.

Then if you sell those 200k shares at 15p later this year, you have dispoaal proceeds of £30,000 and incidental costs of disposal equal to PTM levy of £1 plus whatever your broker's commission turns out to be for the sale. And that completes the set of numbers you need for the working sheet.

If you want to say anything about the share consolidation, state in the initial "Description of asset" box that the asset sold was 200,000 shares, which arose out of a purchased asset of 2,000,000 shares as a result of a 10-to-1 share consolidation.

These things genrally become much simpler if you drop the idea of saying what the price per share is: neither the actual tax forms nor the (optional) worksheets ask for that figure - they're just interested in (at most) how many shares and what the totals are.

Gengulphus

[waterloo01] 04/4/2013 21:06

Hi, recommended by another poster to ask a gct question about bed and breakfasting, which I think I've done wrong. Have I? Situation is I sold 100 shares in company today (that I've owned for over 30 days) and booked a profit. I then bought back most in same account which I intend to hold. How do I work out the capital gain? Do I have to take an average of the original ones and the ones I rebought or just the earlier ones? Hope that makes sense.

[david77] 04/4/2013 20:40

I couldn't get the online return to work so I've always submitted paper returns with calcs using the ww.stonebanks.co.uk calculator. I've never been asked for contract notes.

[bengee] 04/4/2013 20:16

Thanks fireplace22,
I was unsure of situation as they ask for the contract dealing numbers.

[fireplace22] 04/4/2013 19:54

I'd put my holding as 200,000 shares at an initial cost of £21,600 (plus costs incurred) and your sale at 15p would be from that pot. The consolidation is immaterial. It's the number of shares you have and the average cost that is important. IMO

[bengee] 04/4/2013 15:29

Last year I bought 2,000,000 shares of Sound Oil @1.08p average per share.
There has since been a 10 for 1 consolidation making my share price 10.80p & my holding is now 200,000. How do I show that on my online tax return ? If I sell at say 15p later on this year, it will look like i've made a good profit from 1.08p ,where can I show there has been a consolidation of the shares on the form ?
Thanks in advance for any advice that you can give,
Bengee

[fireplace22] 02/4/2013 09:42

Thanks Gengulphus much appreciated. Yes, I cant really see why separate cfd trades for the same company cannot be brought under the same umbrella. It does seem logical. In fact on Barclay's web site my individual cfd trades are shown as a composite.

[gengulphus] 02/4/2013 09:26

fireplace22,

Correct - they are a different type of asset and handled completely separately from the underlying share for CGT purposes.

In addition, I believe that they probably don't use the share-matching rules at all, including the 'Section 104 pool' rule. Those rules basically only apply if different instances of the asset can be indistinguishable - e.g. if I buy 1000 Vodafone shares, then buy another 1000 Vodafone shares in the same account, I then simply have 2000 Vodafone shares in that account and there is no way to tell which of them came from the first purchase and which from the second. The share-matching rules are basically there to say which shares to treat a sale as being in your CGT computations. (Note that the test is whether they can be indistinguishable, not whether they are indistinguishable in the investor's actual situation. E.g. if I buy 1000 Vodafone shares in one account, then buy another 1000 Vodafone shares in a different account, I will know perfectly well which purchase a subsequent sale comes from - but the share-matching rules apply to Vodafone shares because they can be indistinguishable from each other in some situations, and I must use them in my CGT calculations even if they are clearly contrary to fact.)

My understanding is that CFDs are generally separately-identifiable contracts, in which case the share-matching rules don't apply and you instead do the CGT matching according to which contract you actually sold. I've no actual experience of CFDs, though, so cannot say for certain whether that is the case - and in particular, I can imagine that the situation might differ between different CFD providers. So you might do well to ask your CFD provider about their exact CGT status and treatment. Don't expect them to give you personalised tax advice, by the way - they almost certainly aren't allowed to, but they should be able to tell you the general treatment. So when you ask, don't give any details of your actual financial situation - just ask about the treatment. (And it may well be worth taking a good look around their website first - I suspect that it might well be a common enough issue to get into a product FAQ or something similar.)

Gengulphus

[fireplace22] 01/4/2013 11:17

Can anyone confirm that gains on shares held as CFD's are considered separately from shares of the same company held under Rule 104. I.e they don't come under the same 104 umbrella as my ordinary shares and treated as a separate investment. TIA.

[boozey] 31/3/2013 21:36

MIATA, very many thanks for this. I will do the necessary reading!

[miata] 31/3/2013 17:28

1) 2014
2) EIS 3 years-30%, SEIS 5 years-50%.
Yes, yes, no, the tax year and the prior year.
This is a complex area, you probably need to do some further reading to understand the schemes before asking any questions you may then have here. As these schemes are basically investments in unquoted companies you will probably be buying shares in them through a manager and they will deluge you with all the necessary registration paperwork.

Pay close attention to how you will be able to (eventually) realise your illiquid unquoted investment. I personally would only consider them if I had a massive CGT liability to defer or to reduce IHT (especially if you know you have only two years to live) - but I don't have an appetite for high risk.

The first link explains the initial tax relief, the following links provide further information.













The legislation is at Part 5 Income Tax Act 2007 starting at ITA07/S156.

[boozey] 30/3/2013 20:40

This has always been a great thread for CGT and thank to all those who contribute.

There was an article on the Mail today about AIM stocks. I hav a number of questions on this:

1) Is Stamp Duty being abolished from this April 6th or April 6th 2014 on AIM stock.
2) Under the Enterprise Investment Scheme or Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme No CGT is opayable if the stocks are held for 3 years or more. In addition the is income tax relief of 30% to 50% of the investment amount. Does anyone know about these schemes, do you have to register the stocks under them or can you deal with it when you sell your holdings? And must the Income Tax relief be handled in the year in whichyou made the trade?

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated.

[tommy51] 30/3/2013 10:19

Gengulphus , thanks for post 6732, yes all quite clear .... but Mrs T will be confused ;-0.

[gengulphus] 29/3/2013 17:50

MIATA,

With regard to:

Off the top of my head, the only other area of UK tax law that uses the FIFO basis is the relief for losses incurred in the first four tax years of trade against other income (ITA 2007,s72).

I happen to have just run into another area of UK tax law that uses FIFO rules: CGT reliefs on Venture Capital Trusts - see .

You'd think people would know better than to legislate different CGT share-matching rules for different aspects of CGT, but apparently not... :-(

Gengulphus

[eeza] 29/3/2013 16:14

Lol !!!
Blame the beer !!!
But correct on the 30 day rule. Lol !!

[fanramptastic mate] 29/3/2013 16:08

david77

thanks

(eeza - dont give up the day job)!

[eeza] 29/3/2013 15:51

1 : £75k Cap Gains (minus allowance)taxed @ either 18% or 28% depending on circumstances.
2 : Tax Year 2012-2013.
3 : 30 day rule not broken.

[fanramptastic mate] 29/3/2013 13:48

posted on another board

ammons 29 Mar'13 - 13:40 - 18913 of 18913


Gengulphus is your CGT man.


++++++++


I understand the simple examples but have a question for the CGT boffins

example : Mr X has 50k share in co ABC which were purchased in this tax year (2012-13) @ 50p (£25k)

If Mr X sells all 50k ABC shares @ £2.00 say 3 April 2013 (£75k profit),
but then buys them all back @ £1.75 say 18 April 2013 (breaking the must wait 30 day rule) :-

1. What is Mr X's CGT liability (before allowances)?
2. What year will be the CGT liable for declaring (2012-13 or 2013-14)?

TIA