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CGT Capital Gearing Trust Plc

4,695.00
-10.00 (-0.21%)
28 Mar 2024 - Closed
Delayed by 15 minutes
Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Capital Gearing Trust Plc LSE:CGT London Ordinary Share GB0001738615 ORD 25P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  -10.00 -0.21% 4,695.00 4,700.00 4,710.00 4,715.00 4,695.00 4,695.00 119,371 16:35:11
Industry Sector Turnover Profit EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap
Unit Inv Tr, Closed-end Mgmt -43.51M -51.39M -2.0010 -23.49 1.21B
Capital Gearing Trust Plc is listed in the Unit Inv Tr, Closed-end Mgmt sector of the London Stock Exchange with ticker CGT. The last closing price for Capital Gearing was 4,705p. Over the last year, Capital Gearing shares have traded in a share price range of 4,325.00p to 4,850.00p.

Capital Gearing currently has 25,682,435 shares in issue. The market capitalisation of Capital Gearing is £1.21 billion. Capital Gearing has a price to earnings ratio (PE ratio) of -23.49.

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

Showing 7326 to 7347 of 8450 messages
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DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
31/1/2013
11:10
che7win,

I've looked on the HMRC website, it doesn't show capital gains as either belonging to income or not:



Ah, that's rather closer to home. It's an HMRC page, about a benefit-related tax ("High Income Child Benefit Charge") rather than directly about the benefit, and it specifically links to about what counts as "taxable income" for Income Tax purposes.

Capital gains generally (*) do not count as income for Income Tax purposes - that plus the fact that the government want to tax them anyway are basically the reason why CGT exists at all! The reason why capital gains are not mentioned at all in that material is that it is about the difference between taxable income and non-taxable income, not about the difference between income and non-income. You also won't find monetary gifts you've been given or legacies you've been left by someone who has died mentioned, for the same reason: they also aren't income for tax purposes, so the question of whether they are taxable or non-taxable income simply doesn't arise.

So the impression the page you link to leaves me with is that it's taxable income for Income Tax purposes that is the crucial test - if so, capital gains won't affect it.

However, it is noticeable that the page you link to says "Treat your income as income before tax and deduction of 'Personal Allowance'", without the word "taxable" before "income". Given that the link that immediately follows talks does have that extra word, I suspect the reason for that is either a misguided sense of plain English ("taxable income before tax" might be regarded as a potentially confusing phrase, but removing "taxable" from it is IMHO a cure worse than the disease!) or just plain sloppiness... I cannot rule that second explanation out, unfortunately - I'm afraid I've encountered sloppiness in other HMRC documents, and on one occasion have had to redo a large set of CGT computations because I'd based the first attempt on reading precisely what one of their helpsheets said and discovering at the last minute that it was sloppily-written on a minor but relevant point... :-(

So I think based on your link that capital gains are not involved in High Income Child Benefit Charge - but I cannot be entirely certain on the basis of it that someone hasn't left such details out for similar "make it easier to read" or sloppiness reasons. However, some poking around in the area has found some more detailed information that looks quite precise and doesn't show similar signs of oversimplification:




They're reasonably clear that High Income Child Benefit Charge depends on your 'adjusted net income' and on how that is calculated at a fine level of detail, and the latter doesn't mention capital gains at all. That increases my confidence level about capital gains not affecting the charge. But if it mattered to me, I would probably still give the taxman a call or write him a letter to confirm it.

(*) There is an exception in the case of capital gains made in the course of running a business trading in the assets in question. For example, when an antiques dealer makes a gain on buying an antique and selling it on at a higher price, that counts as income for the antique dealer, who would deal with tax on it as Income Tax (and not CGT - there is a general rule that any gain taxed by Income Tax is exempt from CGT). If I did exactly the same trades, it would not count as income for me, as I don't run a business trading antiques, and I would deal with tax on it as CGT - or not if its value placed it within the £6k 'chattels' exemption.

Of course, if I were to do such a thing on anything like a regular basis, the taxman would probably decide that, whatever my views on the matter, the facts were that I was running a business trading antiques! I.e. it's the fact that it would be a one-off for me, or at most only repeated very rarely with no real pattern to it, that would let me deal with it under the CGT rules.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
30/1/2013
23:12
Thanks gengulphus. I've passed this onto a friend who is over the moon that its possible to make tax free money in a stock ISA lol
theuniversal
30/1/2013
19:45
Gengulphus,
Thanks for your reply, I've looked on the HMRC website, it doesn't show capital gains as either belonging to income or not:



I'll keep looking...

che7win
30/1/2013
14:08
Wise words I think, thankyou very much for taking the time to reply both!
bushtuckaman
30/1/2013
13:10
bushtuckaman,

On last year's tax return he consolidated all the 30 odd disposal trades I made throughout the year into 1 trade and filled in the 'number of disposals' box on the tax return as '1'

Then in the 'Any other info' section in the tax advisor section of the return, the accountant explained this action stating he had used one trade to cover all transactions, stating the actual number of disposals, disposal proceeds, allowable costs, and that details are available.

No request for details were requested from HMRC

Question. Do you think this is an appropriate way to go, even though the online self assessment does request you to attach computations for each disposal?

For a professional tax advisor, it might be - the taxman might allow them more leeway on such matters, on the trust and understanding that the tax advisor will adhere to professional standards about writing the computations down in a reasonably comprehensible form, providing them reasonably quickly if requested, not letting the dog eat them, etc.

For an individual, the instructions for filling in the Capital Gains Summary supplementary pages say to accompany them with the computations. I would stick to those instructions if I were you!

Apart from anything else, the downside of following the instructions if you can get away with doing what the tax advisor did is pretty small. You have to do the computations and check they're correct anyway, and it would be a very good idea to write them down formally (i.e. not on the backs of envelopes, serviettes, newspaper margins, etc!) and store them away in your tax files, since you might have to produce them in the future. Given that, printing them out as a pdf and attaching the pdf to your tax return is a tiny extra bit of effort - not worth saving IMHO.

And the possible downside of not following the instructions if it turns out that you cannot get away with it is likely to involve at least a £100 penalty for not submitting a valid tax return on time... I.e. not attaching the computations is a small win / large loss bet - not worth trying unless you're very confident that it's OK. And I think the possible gain probably isn't even worth the effort of trying to get an answer that makes you that confident - by the time you've got the answer and made yourself that confident, you will probably have spent more effort on it than you would have on just producing the pdf and attaching it!

Gengulphus

gengulphus
30/1/2013
11:57
I've sent them the calcs from the prog on www.stonebanks.co.uk
The output lists the deals. If you are going to use one of the online progs then why not send the output from that?

david77
30/1/2013
11:05
Good Morning gents, I would appreciate a little advice if possible. Last year I had an accountant do my tax return (once I had given him my CGT calculations) but this year I've had a crack at it myself as it looks relativley simple.

On last year's tax return he consolidated all the 30 odd disposal trades I made throughout the year into 1 trade and filled in the 'number of disposals' box on the tax return as '1'

Then in the 'Any other info' section in the tax advisor section of the return, the accountant explained this action stating he had used one trade to cover all transactions, stating the actual number of disposals, disposal proceeds, allowable costs, and that details are available.

No request for details were requested from HMRC

Question. Do you think this is an appropriate way to go, even though the online self assessment does request you to attach computations for each disposal?

bushtuckaman
30/1/2013
10:01
che7win,

My question you might now have guessed - would my capital gains be added to my income which would mean my child benefit would be eliminated for me?

Sorry, can't help. That's a question about child benefit, not about CGT, and I'm afraid I know virtually nothing about the detailed rules for child benefit... About all I can suggest is looking for the appropriate government website and/or for an ADVFN thread about child benefit.

My wife has no losses, so I wouldn't be able to transfer my shares to her to sell without having to pay capital gains tax.

You can transfer any number of shares to her without triggering CGT, and unless she has already used her CGT allowance, she can then sell enough shares to realise gains of up to her CGT allowance without incurring CGT. Also, if her income isn't enough to take her into higher-rate tax, she can sell to realise further capital gains of up to however much of her basic-rate Income Tax band her income fails to use and pay 18% CGT on those gains rather than 28%.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
29/1/2013
20:01
Theoretical question (figures changed), but the scenario could affect me.

Say I have £100k losses from previous years and am a basic rate tax payer, but close to the 40% tax rate e.g I earn £40k in income per year.

I have children, so I get child benefit (or rather, my wife does).

Now, say I have £100k in paper profits on some shares and I want to sell them to realise the profit.

If I sell, I won't pay any capital gains because I can offset against my capital gains allowance and my losses from previous years. My question you might now have guessed - would my capital gains be added to my income which would mean my child benefit would be eliminated for me?

My wife has no losses, so I wouldn't be able to transfer my shares to her to sell without having to pay capital gains tax.

Thanks.

che7win
29/1/2013
11:24
Up to you, I think.

Having that note about brought-forward losses being carried forward again is only something I think would be a good idea, and not a legal obligation or a matter of following the instructions for filling in the forms. It might save you from the hassle of getting a "Please explain where these losses came from" letter in the future - possibly quite a few years in the future, when things won't be fresh in your memory and so answering the letter might involve quite a bit of digging through your records.

As long as you keep yourself in a position to explain where the losses came from (I would not get rid of old CGT records until some years after any gains and losses from them have been fully dealt with!), it will only be a matter of possibly saving that hassle, not a difference to the final outcome. And I would keep myself in that position even if I did include the note.

I.e. basically it's a matter of making it easy for the taxman to see what is happening because it might save you from future hassle, nothing more than that.

If you decide you do want to include the note, it should still be a simple matter to amend your 2011/2012 tax return. Whether it would actually be worth doing so, I'll have to leave you to decide - I'm rather uncertain about whether I would bother myself! If I had some other reason for amending it, such as a mistake that needed correcting, I would include it in the amendment, but might well prefer to leave things alone otherwise.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
29/1/2013
09:56
Gengulphus,

My gross gains were indeed less than 10600 and criteria 3-5 don't apply so no need to fill in. Unfortunately I had submitted the form online already. Do you think I need to write to them with that additional info or should they be smart enough to look in the 2010/2011 or previous fillings if I ever wish to use them in future ? I suspect I am being too presumptious of their competance and initiative :)

woracle
29/1/2013
09:04
Thanks. i will double check my exact gross gains again.
woracle
28/1/2013
13:40
ukinvestor220,

Thanks for drawing this to my attention - I didn't see it before because I already had sir leonardo filtered. I have taken some appropriate action.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
26/1/2013
23:14
SIR ARCHIBALD LEONARDO SAYS NO TO CAPITAL GAINS TAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFS TIS FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!

sir leonardo
26/1/2013
23:06
Nil tax, make a million in one day and withdrawl same day and not pay any tax, thats a great investment you made there.
daytraders
26/1/2013
22:44
Stock ISA question from my last post last August (390).If my original stock ISA allowance of £11600 made a gain to £100000 in one tax year how much would I be liable in tax on the whole withdrawal on the £100000Secondly is there a time limit before I can withdraw the gains in my stock ISA ie if put the money in April and by October it gained to £100000 can I withdraw it in October or do I have to wait until the end of the financial year
theuniversal
24/1/2013
04:14
woracle,

I have nothing to declare since my trading activity has been minimal with sale proceeds well under 40K, and my net gains are well below 10K. However I have 4K of losses available carried from previous tax years, which were declared previously. Do I have to fill in the CGT form this year to continue to carry those forward to future years ?

I don't know, because I'm afraid you have omitted an important piece of information, about what your gross gains are. Check out the criteria for filling in the CGT pages, on page 5 of the instructions for the main tax return ( ) and you'll see that the 2nd criterion, about being within £10,600, is quite explicit about checking your gains before deducting losses. (Strictly speaking, you also haven't said clearly that the 3rd, 4th and 5th criteria don't apply, but I assume you'd have mentioned it if something like having net losses (that you would want to claim) or a claim for holdover relief or foreign domicile were involved!)

In case you're wondering why that criterion is about gross gains rather than net gains, I think it's because having gross gains over the allowance but net gains under it always means one of the following about the losses that are netted off to take the gains below the allowance:

* you need to claim them; or:
* you need to use losses claimed in a separate letter; or:
* you need to use losses claimed in an earlier tax return, i.e. brought-forward losses;

and in each case the taxman wants to be told about it.

Anyway, whatever the reason, those instructions are pretty clear about when you have to fill in the CGT pages, so in your position I would follow them! In particular, if your gross gains are over the allowance or any of the 3rd-5th criteria apply, fill them in.

And if your gross gains are below the allowance and none of the 3rd-5th criteria apply, don't fill them in. In that case, however, I think it would be a good idea to put something along the lines of "£N of capital losses brought forward from the 2010/2011 tax year are carried forward unchanged into the 2012/2013 tax year" into the "additional information" section of the main tax return. That's not a claim - those losses have already been claimed in the earlier tax return(s) - so it doesn't make it necessary to fill in the CGT pages. It's just a statement of fact, put there to assist the taxman if, when looking at a future tax return in which you do use those losses, he wants to check where the losses being used came from.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
23/1/2013
09:45
A query about carrying forward losses. This tax year ( 2011/2012 ) I have nothing to declare since my trading activity has been minimal with sale proceeds well under 40K, and my net gains are well below 10K. However I have 4K of losses available carried from previous tax years, which were declared previously. Do I have to fill in the CGT form this year to continue to carry those forward to future years ? Or do I just use them if I need in future.

Any experience of this situation much appreciated.

woracle
22/1/2013
23:10
Added "transfer to spouse" function to cgtcalculator. Thanks for your great posts gengulphus.
rangers99
22/1/2013
20:51
Gengulphus,big thanks once again,invaluable information.
Regards
Rob

bobdobalina
22/1/2013
20:49
WELL WELL WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!

GLENGLUPUSS HAVE YOU CORRECT ANY MATH OR DE QUEENS ENGLISH TODAY FFS!!!!!!

sir leonardo
22/1/2013
20:43
Not much to add to david77's reply. I think the overall implications of the package of CGT simplifications it was part of were good - I just wish they'd got rid of the IMHO pointless complication of the 30-day rule at the same time! But undoubtedly there were both winners and losers from the package, and my 'good' verdict is therefore a judgement call about the overall effect rather than something really clear.

As far as pitfalls are concerned, the only ones I can think of are (a) the obvious one of continuing to base decisions and calculations on the old rules after the new ones had come into effect; (b) not handling the 6 April 2008 transition from the old rules to the new ones correctly. Most cases of that transition are straightforward, but the 30-day rule makes some possibilities involving a sale before 6 April 2008 followed within 30 days by a buy on or after 6 April 2008 a bit tricky.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
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