WIN Plc Share Discussion Threads

[goonertone] 16/7/2008 13:23

Unfortunately the market is so non transparent that mm's are free to work how they wish as long as the company's are notified when limits are breached. However as far as i can tellits down to the funds/shareholders to report any notifiable trade not the mm's therefore if they don't notify the company noone knows and its then down to the FSA to sort out.

If the mm's have a sell order to work from a fund that are having to liquidate due to problems elsewhere in the market then they will just keep walking the price down until the whole of the trade has been worked. Its unfortunate that in the current market their are few instsitutions, investors willing or able to build big positions without news to back it up.

This is also in my opinion exaserbated by the fact that half of the mm's dont want to be in a particular company they just have to be to make a market. They will stick rigidly to their minimum market size and once they have done their duty they will move out of the way thus effectively leaving arda, in this case, as the only mm willing to deal over 100 shares at a time.

Works great on the way up but hurts on the way down.

GT

[8trader] 16/7/2008 13:08

4 grand of sales has took off 1 mil off the value of the company !

[goonertone] 16/7/2008 10:24

Clarification of my above post.

I have had it pointed out to me that the release is for one L & G constituent and that further down it does state that L & G and their associated holdings now own 8.82%. I stand corrected.

However still doesn't change the fact that they have managed to pick up 120k of shares while the price of said shares goes south. Maybe they should round it up to 10% and see if that has any affect.

GT

[8trader] 15/7/2008 15:36

Get it off you chest goonertone but i cant argue with your fustrations.

Problem is if you give up on the stock and bail you will look in again
2 weeks later and the price will have shot up etc etc..sods law..bla bla bla.

[goonertone] 01/7/2008 10:41

Other reasons for todays fall(amongst many I've noted across the smaller co sector)

1)Fund managers reassessing there risk after a few high profiile collapses erg,tan where the speed of decline has not allowed them to unwind their holdings.
2)Fund having to sell to cover losses in the broader market.
3)People selling out ahead of trading statemnet
4)People selling out because there is no trading statement.
5)Boredom

1 & 2 are a hypothesis.
3 & 4 depends on where you get your info from.

Correct position for 3 & 4 is that their is no trading statement to come. Next announcement will be interims in Sept. TS was july last year as agm was late. This year the AGM statement was considered a satisfactory update for the purpose.

GT

[8trader] 01/7/2008 09:38

Yeah a friend was trading that in the 60's until i told him to stay
well clear and mentioned the debt situation and what happens to stocks
in trouble with debt, when i told him on the phone this morning that
Tan was 2p offer in auction he was in shock :-))

[goonertone] 01/7/2008 09:28

It's a special law that none of my shares can go up on the same day. If one goes up AMU the other must come down WNN.

GT

PS Could be worse i could still be in tan.

[goonertone] 01/7/2008 09:14

If ARDA can't make a proper market they shouldn't try. Half of the whipsawing in price is down to them jumping about. While the other mm's have hardly moved for weeks ARDA has been 8p diff receives a couple of sells and swings it round the other way.

GT

[goonertone] 26/6/2008 14:08

Still shares about, just checked barclays online limits

2k@138.2 and 5k@142.8

kbc just popped up to match the other 2 on 145. Arda still out on their own 8p away from the rest.

GT

[8trader] 26/6/2008 13:45

I dont know how they managed to keep the price below 150p!

There's been no sales over 2k for over a month now and there has
to be well over 150k bought and the price has not budged.

I wonder if the mm that was on 144p has moved to just 145p with
the others, dont have L2 today so not sure, it would be nice to
see some bid competiton against the house broker who sits there
praying for sellers some 8p higher than the rest unless of course
others have joined them on 138p but that i doubt.

It's getting there albeit slowly.

[goonertone] 26/6/2008 13:41

Should this not be deserving of an RNS:




GT

Also how about this quote from WIN's website:

"Also, consider that a viewer, who wants to interact with a shopping channel, is not only watching the live TV feed but also speaking to a sales assistant to purchase their lowest bid ipod, AT THE SAME TIME.

A few TV stations are already talking to WIN about their move to putting their brand into a slick mobile portal so they can sell ad inventory on it to monetise the business.

[goonertone] 26/6/2008 13:00

Judging by that trade theirs not a lot of spare shares about

GT

[8trader] 16/6/2008 10:08

Depends if they still want to play games, will they shake on no sales
or will they decide to play fair and move it higher.

Online 139.5-144p...5k each.

[value viper] 15/6/2008 13:19

arden doing their job by pushing up the bid - big gap to fill on the chart (to £2 level) if it can get up thru 150p.

[8trader] 13/6/2008 16:18

They certainly are short of stock, now 8p higher than next bid or 9.5p
higher if you take the online bid VV...now 139.5p !

This has been a long time coming, should be trading at least over 150p
given all those premium buys recently.

[8trader] 10/6/2008 15:06

Well spotted VV.

Problem is they are just going back to where they shook it from last
week.

138p bid online, still need to find sellers but none about.

[value viper] 10/6/2008 14:53

chunkiest buy in a while - clicked up with ARDEN on bid (house broker)

[8trader] 05/6/2008 10:41

Worth a read because i really believe some of the below applies
to Wnn and the mm manipulating the price in it for certain reasons.

MARKET MAKER SPEAKS OUT: Ways of a Market Maker

I was an OTC MM for about 10 years ending in the late 80's. Since then I have been strictly an investor. Since I have not been that up to date in MM rules I will only make statements that I feel fairly confident are still accurate regarding these activities. By and large most MM don't have a clue nor do they care to learn, about the fundamentals of the stocks they trade.

They just try to make orderly markets. When dealing with BB stocks it is very easy for a MM to get trapped into being short in dealing in a fast moving market. Reason being; most of the MM's in this stock are what are called "wholesalers" this means they don't have retail brokers "working" the stocks.

So they have to rely on what's known as the "call" from larger retail houses. If a "Big" retail firm like an E-trade calls up a market maker to purchase say 5,000 shares of a stock, they expect to get an "execution" from that market maker. If he turns them down, or only gives a partial then the "Big" firm will go to another MM.

If this second MM "fills the order" then that "Big" firm has a moral obligation to continue to give future "business" in that stock to that MM who performed (his life blood). This will go on until he "fails" to perform and so on.

Contrary to popular opinion the "Big" firms Do NOT neccessarily go to the "Low Offer" to fill a buy order (Or high bid for a sell). They "Go" to who they think will perform to fill the order and expect that MM to "match" the "low offer" in the case of a buy (bid in the case of a sell). Even though this MM might in fact be the "high bid" and not really want to sell any more.

As a wholesaler he must perform or he will get a reputation as a "non-performer" with the "Big" houses and will cease getting "calls" which means he will soon go out of business. I mentioned above that this activity is very significant to BB stocks. I say this because most of the trades in these BB stocks are "unsolicited" and are done through discount houses.

With the above groundwork laid, let me try to explain how market makers get short even if they like the Company; Lets say that a stock (shell) has been lying quietly at $.25 bid $.50 offered. A limit order comes into one of the MM's to Buy at $.50 for a thousand shares. Prior to this trade that MM may be "flat" (neither long or short any shares). He fills the order and is now short 1,000 shares. He may raise his bid hoping to find a seller to "flatten" out his position. But before he realizes it a wave of buyers have come in and cleared out all the $.50 offers. Now the stock is $.50 bid .75 offered. Here comes that "Big" firm he just sold the 1,000 shares to at .50 with another bid for 1000 at .75. He makes this print. Now he is short 2,000 at an average of .625. The market keeps moving and now its .75 bid 1.00 offered. Now he has to make a decision.

Just like investors, MM Hate to take a loss. So 9 times out of 10 he will now sell 2000 at 1.00 making him short 4000 but with an average .81. At this time he would love to see a seller at .75 so he can cover his short and make a few bucks.

But instead the market keeps moving up. Now it is 1.00 to 1.25 and here comes the buyer again at 1.25. He doesn't want to lose the call so now he needs to sell 4,000 at 1.25 to keep his break even point above the bid. Now he is short 8,000. Market moves up to 1.25 bid 1.50 offer here comes the buyer now he feels he must sell 8000 here because "stocks don't go up forever".

Now he is short 16,000. And so on and so on. If the stock keeps moving up, before he realizes it he could be short 50k or 100k shares (depending how big his bank is).

Finally the market closes for the day and on paper he may look all right in that his "break even" price may be around the closing price. But now he has to figure out how to entice sellers so he can cover this short. It is important to note that if this happened to one MM it has probably happened to most all of them.

Some ways MM's entice sellers; Run the stock up with a "tight spread" in a fast market, then "open" up the spread to slow down the buying interest. After it has "cooled off" for a little while lower the offer below the last trade right after a small piece trades on the offer then tighten the spread so that the sellers feel they can take a "quick profit" by "hitting the bid" on the tight spread.

Once the selling starts the MM's will walk it down quickly by only making small prints on the way down with the tight spread. Another way is by running the stock up in the morning, averaging up their short then use the above technique to walk it down in the afternoon.

Hopefully after doing this for several days, it will demoralize the buyers. The volume will dry up and the sellers will materialize thinking that the game is over.

Contrary to popular opinion, MM usually Do Not Cover in Fast moving markets either Up or Down if they are short. They Short More. They usually try to cover after the frenzy is out of the market. There are many other techniques they use but the above are the most popular.

This technique works about 9 times out of 10 particularly in a BB market. However that is because 9 out of 10 BB stocks are BS. Remember what I said above. Most MM's don't have a clue as to the value of a Company until they get trapped. If the Company has solid fundementals and a bright future. Then the stock will do very well. And the activity that caused the situation will prove to even help the future stock activity because it created an audience

[8trader] 05/6/2008 08:13

Once again the manipulation in this share in astounding.

All buys for a month and lets chop the opening bid by 4p !

I hope nobody loses patience with it all and lets the mm's win
this ongoing games.

[8trader] 04/6/2008 20:02

But they seem to have expected a decline in certain services while
the move to others are improving so a sound statement but with little
response price-wise and punter wise.

Maybe nobody noticed it today.

[8trader] 04/6/2008 11:09

Come on mm's, you have to play fair at some point :-))

That statement was worthy of a mark up !